Harry Potter Book Read Along Thread - Order of the Phoenix

[Julia H.]

This topic serves as an archive of a thread from the Harry Potter Lexicon Forum as hosted on World Crossing, which ceased operation on April 15, 2011. Although the original thread was called "Series Read Along", in fact, it became an OotP Read Along, as indicated by the new title. Julia H.

# Harry Potter Series Read Along
Denise P. - Mar 17, 2005 4:14 pm
Edited by Kip Carter May 21, 2007 5:59 am
Okay, here is a non specific book thread, so that you can do a read along. Did you want to start with OoP? By being non specific, you can move on to the next part when the group is ready without waiting for a Host (bad me!) to remember to do it.

[Julia H.]

Harry Potter and the Order of the Phoenix Book Read Along (Posts 1-50)


Ponine - Mar 17, 2005 6:56 pm (#1 of 528)
OK everyone - or anyone... What are we doing? Should we fearlessly start on book one AGAIN?!?! Or what?

Edit: I wrote a first message!?!?!? FUN!

- - - - - - - - - -
pottermom34 - Mar 17, 2005 9:11 pm (#2 of 528)
Well we have 4 months til HBP, could we get through all of them before it comes out, or would it be easier to just start with OotP? It doesn't matter to me, I just hope I can keep up.

- - - - - - - - - -
Penny Lane. - Mar 18, 2005 2:19 am (#3 of 528)
I think we should start with OoP, and work our way backwards through the series. that means we will read OoP, GoF, PoA, CoS, and SS ,, if we have time. I think we should do 2-3 chapters a week, and discuss as we go.

This is just my suggeston though, you are welcome to dissent if you desire.

- - - - - - - - - -
Eponine - Mar 18, 2005 5:25 am (#4 of 528)
I just want to make a note that if you want to get through all 5 books before July 16, you need to read at least a chapter a day. I started PS/SS on March 6 in order to read one chapter each day until HBP, and I just finished chapter 12.

- - - - - - - - - -
Denise P. - Mar 18, 2005 7:16 am (#5 of 528)
Unless you are like me and can't limit yourself to one chapter a day

Okay, looks like OOP is up first then. Read, digest and come back to discuss. It seems to work well in about 5 chapter installments but whatever the group wants will work.

- - - - - - - - - -
Eponine - Mar 18, 2005 7:47 am (#6 of 528)
Well, usually when I re-read it takes me a couple of weeks, but I decided to stretch it out this time. It's hard to stop at the end of a chapter each day, but I figure it's good for me to learn to be patient.

I would love to do a group read through, but I'm afraid I'll have to pass this time.

- - - - - - - - - -
pottermom34 - Mar 18, 2005 10:05 am (#7 of 528)
2 or 3 a week is good for me, actually I could probably do 5. If my family left me alone I could read the whole book in a week but I would miss things.

- - - - - - - - - -
Choices - Mar 18, 2005 12:04 pm (#8 of 528)
I'm OK with starting with OotP, but let's not go backward. It's confusing to know things that have not even happened in the next book you are going to read. Believe me, I don't need any help being confused. LOL Please, lets go in order - after OotP let's go to book one, not book 4.

- - - - - - - - - -
pottermom34 - Mar 18, 2005 12:07 pm (#9 of 528)
I agree, that makes more sense anyway.

- - - - - - - - - -
Mrs Brisbee - Mar 18, 2005 1:24 pm (#10 of 528)
I've never done a read along; it sounds like fun! I also like the idea of doing OotP and then going to the first book.

I just want to make a note that if you want to get through all 5 books before July 16, you need to read at least a chapter a day. I started PS/SS on March 6 in order to read one chapter each day until HBP, and I just finished chapter 12. --Eponine

You know, when you put it like that, the release of HBP doesn't seem so far away

- - - - - - - - - -
Ponine - Mar 18, 2005 2:20 pm (#11 of 528)
ok, so should we discuss chapter by chapter then? Starting with chapter one of OoTP, and finished with the chapter by?

- - - - - - - - - -
pottermom34 - Mar 18, 2005 4:03 pm (#12 of 528)
Chapter by chapter is ok with me. If we read a chapter a day and 3 a week maybe finish by monday w/ chap. 1, by wed chap. 2, by fri chap 3. Or if we do 2 a week, finish ch.1 by tue., and ch. 2 by thur. This is just an idea, don't want to step on toes.

- - - - - - - - - -
Ponine - Mar 18, 2005 6:24 pm (#13 of 528)
Either will work with me - but I only have myself to worry about, unlike many of you Thus, I vote for being done with Chapter one by Monday(, and take it from there?)

- - - - - - - - - -
Penny Lane. - Mar 18, 2005 10:56 pm (#14 of 528)
Well, not all of us can check in every day, so I think we should do 5 chapters per week or so. (that comes out to a chapter every buisness day.) I think we should just set a limit of be done with chapter 5 on friday. Everyone is, of course, welcome to post chapter by chapter if they wish. I prefer a more laid back way, so that we don't all feel pressured. We won't be done with GoF though by the time HBP comes out.

The reason I wanted to go backwards, like reading OoP, GoF, PoA, than CoS and SS, was because I think that many of us have already read SS and CoS more than the others - they came out first, they have movies and DVD's and everytime a new installment comes out, we start at the beginning. I just thought we might find more clues and new things in the "newer" books.

- - - - - - - - - -
Steve Newton - Mar 19, 2005 8:47 am (#15 of 528)
When are we going to actually start?

- - - - - - - - - -
Dumbledore - Mar 19, 2005 10:34 am (#16 of 528)
Count me in for a read along!!! (does a little jig around room at the thought of reading with Potties!)

I'm fine with whatever system works for everybody...just let me know!

- - - - - - - - - -
Ponine - Mar 19, 2005 3:30 pm (#17 of 528)
Well, my original idea was to have one chapter done for monday, and penny suggested five by friday. I must admit that even if I have read the two first book over and over again, i still think there is a lot that i may have missed, but if most people prefer OoTP, that is fine too, as long as we get started. I guess I for one will, unless someone orders me to do otherwise, will have read chapter one of PS AND OoTP by monday, just in case...

- - - - - - - - - -
pottermom34 - Mar 19, 2005 8:44 pm (#18 of 528)
I already have ch. one of OoP read, I'll read it again and add 2 to it.

- - - - - - - - - -
Dumbledore - Mar 20, 2005 7:58 am (#19 of 528)
Maybe we should have a sort of "leader" to this group just to get us organized and keep us on track. That way we could know exactly what we're doing, how much to read, when to post etc.

--Lauren

- - - - - - - - - -
Steve Newton - Mar 20, 2005 8:34 am (#20 of 528)
I'm going to reread chapter 1 of OOTP today and post some comments/obserations tonight or tomorrow.

- - - - - - - - - -
Ponine - Mar 20, 2005 2:44 pm (#21 of 528)
Dumbledore, that sounds like a good idea!! And I am looking forwards to Steve's and everyone else's comments

- - - - - - - - - -
Dumbledore - Mar 20, 2005 6:09 pm (#22 of 528)
Er..does everyone think that having a sort of leader would be a good idea? I think it would get us organized and stuff, just to get going.

- - - - - - - - - -
Steve Newton - Mar 20, 2005 7:13 pm (#23 of 528)
I count 134 chapters in the books so far. We have a little over 17 weeks before HBP comes out. Assuming that my math is correct, shaky assumption, we have to read about 9 chapter a week to get done by the release date. We had better get moving or we will be scrunching the last chapters.

- - - - - - - - - -
Madame Pomfrey - Mar 20, 2005 10:09 pm (#24 of 528)
Oooh I want to join.(Stands up in chair with hand in air like Hermione).When do we start?

- - - - - - - - - -
Penny Lane. - Mar 21, 2005 12:42 am (#25 of 528)
We are starting now. Anything up until chapter 5 of OoP can be discussed and we will probably be moving at the end of the week.

I want to stress to everyone that it would be very difficult to have this work as one chapter per day. Not everyone comes on to the forum everyday, and we all have other 'real life' prioritys that come first. Therefore, I really want to push for doing it in chunks, say 5 chapter increments, and leave it open for a week or so. A common thing that happens is that we start and everyone is really into it, then it starts to fall apart.

Chapter One: I'm rather concerned about Harry being followed all the time, without knowing. I know that I would have some serious issues with people watching me 24-7. Being 15 is hard enough, and now everytime he picked his nose, someone saw him being gross. I couldn't handle that.

Do we know that Ms Figg breeds Kneazles? That cat is weird.

What on earth could have happend to Dudley to make him freak out with the dementors?

- - - - - - - - - -
Mrs Brisbee - Mar 21, 2005 7:14 am (#26 of 528)
Chapter 1, "Dudley Demented"

Rowling usually uses the first or second chapter of her books to provide a summation of what has happened in the previous books, and I think she does the best job ever in OotP, weaving the summation into the action and connecting to what Harry is currently feeling.

For example, Sirius's letters urge Harry to stay out of trouble, but for Harry "...it was quite galling to be told not to be rash by a man who had served twelve years in the wizard prison, Azkaban, escaped, attempted to commit the murder he had been convicted for in the first place, then gone on the run with a stolen hippogriff..."

That nicely tells Sirius's story and makes it relevent to how frustrated Harry is feeling right at that moment.

I think the whole chapter serves to remind us what happened at the end of GoF, too. Harry again faces a deadly situation and must save himself without help.

When Uncle Vernon tries to strangle Harry, some force that surges through Harry makes Vernon let go. Is this emotional magic, or the blood protection at work? I think it must be the latter, because Vernon was angry enough to cause real harm to Harry and he is not a blood relative like Petunia. Also the MoM would be likely to pick up even unintentional magic that Harry did, since they seem to be monitoring the area he lives in closely.

- - - - - - - - - -
Steve Newton - Mar 21, 2005 7:55 am (#27 of 528)
"because Vernon was angry enough to cause real harm to Harry and he is not a blood relative like Petunia."

It might also explain why Dudley is able to hurt him, having the same blood and all. But doesn't Vernon hit Harry at other times? I can't seem to think right now.

- - - - - - - - - -
Steve Newton - Mar 21, 2005 8:44 am (#28 of 528)
Chapter 1-Dudley Demented (I'll try to keep my really stupid comments to a minimum)

The news mentions a helicopter crash. Doesn't Draco, somewhere, mention buzzing a helicopter while riding his broom?

If Harry read the Daily Prophet as closely as he listened to the muggle news he would have been better prepared for the coming year.

I thought that humans and elves apparated differently but Mundungus makes the same noise as Dobby. By the way, why is Harry sure that Dobby can't make himself invisible?

Harry doesn't belong to the muggle world because the Dursley's have intentionally cut him off from it. Making him an outcast, St. Brutus' and all that. Could this have been intentiional? Dumbledore's doing, along with Petunia?

What happened to make Dudley learn boxing? He never seemed to concentrate on anything this long before. Does it have some relationship to his experience with the dementors?

The name Magnolia Crescent reminds me of Dumbledore's half moon glasses.

I had not realized that the dementor attack took place in the same alley where he had seen Sirius.

I had also thought that the dementors attacked soon after Mundungus left but it seems that quite a bit of time elapsed, maybe a couple of hours.

I wonder if Dudley's fear told the dementors where to go.

Cold images recur and so far I have noticed them connected to Draco's voice, Voldemort, and the dementors.

Harry hears laughter in his head. Is this Voldemort picking up and responding to Harry's thoughts?

Sorry for the long boring list. I'll try to do better with the next chapter.

- - - - - - - - - -
pottermom34 - Mar 21, 2005 9:35 am (#29 of 528)
Did the electric sort of shock Vernon felt come from Harry or from Mrs. Number 7 that was glaring out from behind her curtains, we don't know much about the neighbors, maybe they are not all muggles.
how could Mr Tinnles tell Mrs. Figg if something was going to happen is there a special way to communicate with kneazles?
why did Figgy leave Harry at the door to explain everything to the Dursleys, doesn't she know they wouldn't believe Harry?
Who is Mr. Prentice, or is he insignificant? Well just a few things to ponder, off to make lunch and read more.

- - - - - - - - - -
Steve Newton - Mar 21, 2005 10:06 am (#30 of 528)
At Harry's trial, later I know, Fudge says that no witches or wizards live near Privet Drive. I think that that rules out a neighbor.

- - - - - - - - - -
Madame Pomfrey - Mar 21, 2005 11:29 am (#31 of 528)
I think if the Dursley's found out about Mrs.Figg they would take delight in not allowing Harry to visit her anymore.Steve,I think in SS Draco was boasting about nearly hitting a helicopter while flying his broom or something like that.I find it odd that the dementors seem to affect Dudley as much as they do Harry.What had happened to Dudley that was so horrible.I wonder if something happened to him as a baby involving the wizarding world and if he remembers bits and pieces of it like Harry's memory of Godric's Hollow.

Also,why didn't Harry use his invisibility cloak to view the news without his aunt and uncles knowledge?He used it to get to Grimmauld place why didn't he use it at other times?

- - - - - - - - - -
Choices - Mar 21, 2005 11:31 am (#32 of 528)
Steve - "What happened to make Dudley learn boxing? He never seemed to concentrate on anything this long before. Does it have some relationship to his experience with the dementors?"

When OotP opens, it is summer vacation. Dudley had taken up boxing during the previous school year and that was before the dementor attack ever happened.

Perhaps dementors have a more profound effect on Muggles than they do on wizards. Either that, or Dudley is hiding some secret in his past that we will learn about in book 6 or 7.

- - - - - - - - - -
Madame Pomfrey - Mar 21, 2005 11:50 am (#33 of 528)
I think JKR said we would find out more about Dudley's dementor experience in book 6 if I'm not mistaken.

- - - - - - - - - -
Steve Newton - Mar 21, 2005 11:59 am (#34 of 528)
Choices, I was wondering if something had happened to Dudley that made self defense a seem good idea.

- - - - - - - - - -
Mrs Brisbee - Mar 21, 2005 2:04 pm (#35 of 528)
I was wondering if something had happened to Dudley that made self defense a seem good idea. --Steve Newton

Intriguing idea. It would explain a lot. Would Dudley believe a wizard could be bested in a fight by a punch though? Still it would provide a means of self protection, and might make him feel safer if nothing else.

Harry doesn't belong to the muggle world because the Dursley's have intentionally cut him off from it. Making him an outcast, St. Brutus' and all that. Could this have been intentiional? Dumbledore's doing, along with Petunia? --Steve Newton.

Good observation. While I don't think it was Dumbledore or Petunia's plan, it is certainly what they ended up doing, which is a bit ironic. Petunia and Vernon wanted to prevent Harry from joining the magical world, but didn't provide a place for him in the Muggle world.

Also about Mrs. Figg, Harry says at the beginning of the chapter that Mrs. Figg keeps inviting him over to tea. Did he ever take her up on the offer? Did she want to tell him something?

- - - - - - - - - -
Dumbledore - Mar 21, 2005 2:29 pm (#36 of 528)
I think Mrs. Figg was instructed to keep an eye on Harry by Dumbledore now that Voldemort returned. Since Mrs. Figg was the "batty" neighbor, this was the only way she was able to try to keep an eye on Harry and make sure he's OK while looking innocent. I don't think they ever actually told us if he took her up on the offer.

In regards to the thing about the Dursleys cutting Harry off from the muggle world, I don't think that was Dumbledore's intention, but rather the result of the Dursleys never really wanting Harry or accepting him in the first place. They merely provided him houseroom, but never really accepted him or wanted him in their world.

The reason I think that Dudley took up boxing was because he really had no other merits to him. He is just like any other bully - the only claim they have to their self-appointed worship is the fact that they are physically stronger than those around him. He certainly isn't clever or bright, and as far as we know he has no other talents about him. His size would certainly make him an intimidating boxer.

It is interesting that if Harry simply had read the whole Daily Prophet, he would have been much more prepared for the events that followed. I don't see why he wouldn't have read it. It was his only contact with the outside wizarding world, and in his frustration I would think that he would voraciously read it cover to cover and over again for any bits of information on the wizarding world and Vodlemort's actions. In addition, he probably would've been so bored on Privet Drive that even if he didn't have an intention of reading it he would have anyway for lack of something else to do.

I, too, was wondering about that "invisible force". Do we have any ideas about what it may be?

Also, about Sirius' comments about staying clean and keeping your nose out of things...what did he expect Harry would do that would place him in danger? Harry assumes that not messing with Dudley's gang was following Sirius' instructions, but what did Sirius actually mean? What did he expect Harry would do?

On page 19, the dementor is about to kiss Dudley and "gripping his wrists in its slimy hands, prizing them slowly, almost lovingly, apart".

My main comment as to this is the adjective lovingly. In any other description of dementors they have been described in every way as cold and unfeeling of any type of emotion or passion in their actions. So why would the way they prized Dudders' hands apart be lovingly?

Wow, long post. I think this re-read is really productive. I'm getting a lot of insight into things I didn't previously notice. I actually put post-its on the "interesting" points, which helps me remember things. My mom was walking in as I did this and rolled her eyes and said - "you're taking NOTES on Harry Potter now?!" Sheesh, muggles

- - - - - - - - - -
Ponine - Mar 21, 2005 3:14 pm (#37 of 528)
I too feel that Rowling really used this chapter to recap and set the mode. I remember feeling rather disturbed while reading OP the first time, because it conveys Harry's mood so accurately, it literally made me feel resentful, tired and - just bitter! And I think also the first chapter really emphasizes that Harry has grown, both physically and emotionally. He is no longer a boy or a kid, but a full-fledged teenager. A traumatized, lonely, teenager.

I was also struck by the fact that he did not read the paper front to back and upside down, which I think I would have. However, I suppose it goes to show how agitated he is - I really see Harry as a caged animal in this chapter, a lion pacing relentlessly back and forth in a tiny cage.

I too reacted to 'lovingly', and to me, it effectively emphasized the sickness of it all - how creepy and nasty the whole situation was, how they fed off of Duds fear and savored it, excited about kissing him and prying his hands apart like we would smell a baby's hair, a good wine or a nice, yummy steak (or cheese biscuits from Red Lobster... ... )

Finally, I mentioned it on Squibs, and I suppose I was shot down (in the nicest way, of course), as I was under the assumption that Mrs. Figg was married, and wondering where her (muggle) husband might be, if she has any children that might show up, and in that event, if they may be considered half blood....

And there is nothing wrong with a good post-it note here and there, DD!! It just brings out our inner Hermione .

- - - - - - - - - -
Choices - Mar 21, 2005 7:08 pm (#38 of 528)
Dumbledore, I agree with you about Dudley and boxing. I think he likes beating up on people and boxing is a good excuse to do it.

- - - - - - - - - -
Mrs Brisbee - Mar 21, 2005 8:23 pm (#39 of 528)
Ch1 "Dudley Demented" and Ch2 "A Peck of Owls"

I'm rather concerned about Harry being followed all the time, without knowing. I know that I would have some serious issues with people watching me 24-7. Being 15 is hard enough, and now every time he picked his nose, someone saw him being gross. I couldn't handle that. --Penny Lane

Which brings up the question, what was the order trying to accomplish by following Harry around without telling him, and with only one person? Not telling Harry he was being followed may have been Dumbledore trying to keep details of how the Order was protecting Harry from Voldemort. But what would one order member do if Voldy and a gang of DEs showed up in Little Whinging to attack Harry while he wandered the streets? The Order doesn't seem to have been concerned about an attack by Voldemort, but rather that Harry would use underage magic for some reason and bring down the wrath of the Ministry of Magic. It does seem harebrained not to tell Harry that this is a concern.

I wonder if Mrs. Figg was planning on giving Harry a heads-up, and that's why she kept inviting him to tea. She was well informed on the surveillance, and after the dementor attack she quickly told Harry about it and why he was being watched.

There was several hours between Mundungus leaving and the dementor attack. Mrs. Figg knew he left, but no other Order member was called in. Doesn't she have any way to contact the Order, or was she just covering for Mungdungus in the hope he would return without anything bad happening?

- - - - - - - - - -
pottermom34 - Mar 21, 2005 9:51 pm (#40 of 528)
I don't think she was willingly covering for him cause she told him not to go. She was pretty angry that he left. But she saidshe had stationed Mr. Tibbles under a nearby car just in case. I wonder how Mr. Tibbles warned her does she speak fluent cat? I'm guessing she told him not to and thinking nothing would happen, he went anyway.

Ok I'm picturing pg. 25 and Mrs. Figg swinging a bag of catfood at Mundungus, hope that's in the movie as a comedy bit. ( Little old lady swinging cat food at big burley dude)

- - - - - - - - - -
pottermom34 - Mar 21, 2005 10:01 pm (#41 of 528)
If I were Harry , when Vernon started asking all the ???'s about the owls and stuff, I would have said " why do you care, you never did before?"

- - - - - - - - - -
Steve Newton - Mar 22, 2005 7:43 pm (#42 of 528)
Chapter 2, A Peck of Owls

Peck is a very versatile word with many meanings. They all seem to be applicable to the chapter.

Figg didn't seem to want to be seen by the Dursley's.

Was harry's foot on the squeaky stair?

For some reason I think that Petunia's horsey teeth will come up again.

Who was "that awful boy?" Is "her" Lily?

"I can't stop the owls coming." A good philosophy for life.

- - - - - - - - - -
Mrs Brisbee - Mar 23, 2005 7:50 am (#43 of 528)
I think "her" must be Lily, but "that awful boy" isn't necessarily James. Maybe Sirius, Peter, or even Snape.

I keep wondering about Petunia's horsey teeth too. Did Lily have the same feature, and used magic like Hermione did in GoF to fix her teeth? Rowling keeps emphasizing how different Pet and Lily were physically.

It is Arthur Weasley who is the first to send Harry a (short) letter explaining what was going on and what he needed to do. Arthur is also the one who let Sirius know what was going on.

- - - - - - - - - -
Steve Newton - Mar 23, 2005 7:58 am (#44 of 528)
Arthur does seem to be pretty aware of what is going on in the Ministry. He seems to be an excellent 'undercover' man for teh OOTP.

- - - - - - - - - -
pottermom34 - Mar 23, 2005 8:03 am (#45 of 528)
I'm pretty sure "that awful boy" was James. When Harry started to see Pet in a different light was she showing she really cares for her nephew but is cold to him because of Vernon? I think if it weren't for Vernon and Dudley, she would open up to Harry. She knows a lot more obout the WW than she is revealing.


I have a silly question. With Harry being locked in his room, how does he get out to go to the bathroom, or is there one in his room. I can't imagine the Dursleys putting a bathroom in there for him, that would be a luxury thing wouldn't it? Maybe he has an other floorboard for that (ducking dung bombs -- for the gross idea).


In ch. 3 when Mad eye did the disillusion charm on Harry, why didn't he just use it on everyone then they wouldn't have had to avoid all the cities, and traffic on the roads?


I bet Harry wished the owls would have made a drop on Vernon's head.

- - - - - - - - - -
Ponine - Mar 23, 2005 8:06 am (#46 of 528)
Could it be that Petunia and Lily have different fathers? Or is it more to emphasize how different the sisters were? Or to emphasize how much prettier, more charming, and kind Lily were, compared to Petunia? I mean, we are painted a Cinderella and wicked step-sister image here...

- - - - - - - - - -
Penny Lane. - Mar 23, 2005 9:30 am (#47 of 528)

With Harry being locked in his room, how does he get out to go to the bathroom, or is there one in his room.


We were told back in CoS that Harry was let out twice a day to use the bathroom. I sure hope he took a shower as well - imagine the smell of ripe boy & Hedwig.

What's the deal with the squeaky stair? Is it just for consistancy (much like Anya's fear of Bunnies on BtVS), or is there a magical reason behind it?

Why was James such an 'awful boy'? Did he have the same anti-muggle attitude? Was there any particular reason that things went sour between Lily and Petunia? It's so weird and cryptic, and I want details. Even something simple, such as "we never really got along, but then this happened." And elaborate

How does Petunia keep her kitchen so clean? I try and try and try , and I can barely manage to keep my room habitable.

- - - - - - - - - -
Madame Pomfrey - Mar 23, 2005 11:10 am (#48 of 528)
Why did Petunia look so fearful when Harry said Voldemort has returned? I am wodering if perhaps Voldemort paid a little visit to Petunia and Dudley{maybe Dudley's worst memory)looking for Lily while Vernon was away.Her fear seemed to be on a personal note and not because of what he(Voldemort) did to her sister.Thoughts?

- - - - - - - - - -
pottermom34 - Mar 23, 2005 1:12 pm (#49 of 528)
Eeewe! not a pleasant thought, thanks Penny Lane I didn't catch that in CoS.
For some reason I think a lot of the sourness between has something to do with Vernon, Don't ask why maybe cause in SS there is a line in there about her sister and their lot being unDursleyish.
I also still think Pet knows some magic, like scourgify to keep the kitchen clean, or something that she's hiding from Vernon. She doesn't say as much as Vernon when it comes to wizards, in fact I think she's too quiet when it comes up in conversation. She just seems too mysterious. I would like to see a few more details about her and the situation with Lily also.

- - - - - - - - - -
Mrs Brisbee - Mar 23, 2005 1:24 pm (#50 of 528)
How does Petunia keep her kitchen so clean? I try and try and try , and I can barely manage to keep my room habitable. --Penny Lane

Heh heh, I'm as baffled as you, Penny. Hausfrau is definately not my calling. I think Petunia hates not being in control, she knows of too many things out there that are scary and beyond her control, so she takes it out on the dirt in her kitchen.

Here's something I've been wondering that is probably unanswerable: when the ministry monitors for underage magic do they detect all magic in an area? Did they detect Mundungus Disapparating right outside the Dursley's house?

I think it impossible that Umbridge could have known what security measures surrounded Harry, but was it coincidence that the Dementors showed up when Mundungus happened to be gone?

About Petunia being fearful of Voldemort's return, she did seem to know not only what that meant, but also cared.

[Julia H.]

Harry Potter and the Order of the Phoenix Book Read Along (Posts 51-100)


pottermom34 - Mar 23, 2005 1:30 pm (#51 of 528)
You may be on to something about Umbridge there Mrs. Brisbee. Now that you mention it and we know she sent them, It does seem coincidental.

- - - - - - - - - -
Madame Pomfrey - Mar 23, 2005 2:36 pm (#52 of 528)
Mrs Brisbee.I have thought about that too.Harry got blamed for Dobby's hover charm but not his disapparating.Maybe disapparating goes undetected which could be why its not allowed at Hogwarts( for security reasons).On another note Hagrid is not supposed to use magic yet he gave Dudley his cute little piggy tail and told Harry not to tell anyone.Why didn't the MoM detect that and send the Magical Reversal Squad?

- - - - - - - - - -
Steve Newton - Mar 24, 2005 7:12 am (#53 of 528)
Chapter 3, The Advance Guard

Many good images here. I especially noted this one.

"A wand tip flared, illuminating the hall with magical light. Harry blinked. The people below were crowded around the foot of the stairs, gazing intently up at him, some craning their necks for a better look."

It sounds almost biblical to me.

The buttocks scene is about the funniest in the books so far.

I counted 9 members in the advance guard.

Moody seems to be in charge.

- - - - - - - - - -
pottermom34 - Mar 24, 2005 9:09 am (#54 of 528)
About the buttocks scene, moody sounds like he knows first hand about that.
I wonder why Harry is left out of the meeting. I know it is for adults only but considering Harry is the one that told them about LV and considering what Harry has done or been through, and that he is the one whose life os the most threatened, I think he should be able to sit in on at least part of it or be told what's going on. Harry has done as much as most of the folks in the order to defeat LV.

- - - - - - - - - -
Dumbledore - Mar 24, 2005 10:38 am (#55 of 528)
OK, here's some of the stuff I picked up on in chapters 2 and 3.

1. On page 22, we get a description of Mundungus Fletcher. "He had short bandy legs, long straggly ginger hair, and bloodshot baggy eyes that gave him the doleful look of a basset hound". At first glance, it seemed to me vaguely like a description of Crookshanks with the bandy legs and ginger hair.

2. I, too, wondered why Mrs. Figg at least didn't stay to answer some of Harry's questions. I guess she didn't want to actually go into the house because she still wanted to keep up her cover with the Dursleys, but I think it would have been wise of her to at least try to assuage some of Harry's anxieties, but I guess she was too confused and alarmed herself to do so.

3.I started keeping track of the all the "clean" references of Petunia's house in the story. I think we'll find out it means something at some point, so here's what I got so far. I didn't look for anything in chapter 1, so this is only for chapters 2 and 3:

Page 25 - "the scrupulously clean kitchen had an oddly unreal glitter after the darkness outside".

Page 37 - "It felt very strange to be standing here in Aunt Petunia's surgically clean kitchen..."

Page 50 - Tonks says "Very clean, aren't they, these Muggles?" (The word clean is actually in italics in the book"

Page 51 - Again Tonks - "It's a bit too clean, d'you know what I mean? Bit unnatural. Oh this is better," she added, as they entered Harry's vedroom and he turned on the light. The word "too" in this quote is in italics. I find it fascinating how Tonks finds this extreme cleaninless unnatural.

4 clean references in two chapters...it has to mean something! *looks hopefully at forum for answers*

Other things I noticed...

-Vernon questioning Harry throughout chapter 2, not Petunia.

-On page 38, where Petunia and Harry reach a kind of understanding about Voldemort..I find this very emotional and touching. I especially like the quote "And all of a sudden, for the first time in his life, Harry fully appreciated that Aunt Petunia was his mother's sister."

-When Aunt Petunia receives the howler, it doesn't say who it's from so we know she must've at least talked to Dumbledore voice-to-voice previously, not just by letters, or had some actual face-to-face contact, because she recognizes his voice. I presume we'll find out more about this contact.

-On page 41, after Petunia receives the howler and tells Harry that he must stay, she says "You're to stay in your room. You're not leave the house. Now get to bed." I've always been puzzled by this quote. Why did she say this?

-Pottermom, on page 44 it says "Harry spent the day in his bedroom, leaving it only to go to the bathroom". I guess that means he did leave the bedroom just to go to the bathroom, but probably didn't interact with anybody or do anything worth noting outside of his room.

-Page 47 - Kingsley Shacklebolt comments that Harry looks exactly like James. How does he know James? Because we learn in the Order of the Phoenix chapter that Kingsley was one of the few who believed the Order that Voldemort was back and joined the Order then. He wasn't in the Order the first time around with James.

-I find it interesting how Tonks refers to Andomeda as "fool of a mother". Is this only because she called her Nymphadora, or is there something else we don't know. We know she was Sirius' favorite cousin, so I can't see her as being bad or anything..also, do you think Andromeda knows that Tonks is the in the Order? If so, why wouldn't she join? I also found it fascinating how Tonks mentioned her mother several times in the short period that Harry knew her.. the "fool of a mother" quote, then discusses her when she's trying to use magic when packing.

-The sparks that were the signal for the Advance Guard to leave..I don't know but I would be pretty surprised if I saw red sparks, then green sparks light up the sky of a suburban neighborhood. Also, flying in front of muggles and landing in the middle of a square? I find it hard they weren't noticed (Flying Ford Anglia deja vu)...I know all this stuff has been mentioned before but I'm just throwing it out there again.

Wow..long post, and a lot of babbling on different subjects. Sorry if that made no sense at all - it was just some stuff I noticed.'

-Lauren

P.S. I think it would be better if we only discussed one chapter at a time and made sure everyone had enough time to read the chapter and post about it before moving on, so that everyone is posting about the same chapter, and we have the opportunity to discuss for a little bit about the chapter before rushing off to another one. Just my opinion, of course..does anyone have a suggestion as to how we could make this kind of system to allow ample time for everybody and not get confused. Of course we only have a limited amount of time before HBP, though...

- - - - - - - - - -
Steve Newton - Mar 24, 2005 11:16 am (#56 of 528)
I did a quick count a few days ago and there are more chapters in the series than there are days until HBP. If we are to do them all we have to keep up a pretty good pace.

- - - - - - - - - -
Mrs Brisbee - Mar 24, 2005 1:07 pm (#57 of 528)
I think it is impossible to do all the books before HBP, and we shouldn't even try, it would be too rushed. The plan right now is to do OotP chapters 1-5 in a week (starting 6-10 either Saturday or Monday, I'm not sure which because I have a hard time finding time to post on weekends). I myself don't mind people being within a chapter of each other or so, a lot of the information overlaps and is relevant to other chapters.

OotP, Ch3 "The Advance Guard"

No letters to Harry for four days after the dementor attack. Whose brilliant idea was that?

pottermom was wondering when Moody Disillusioned Harry why he just didn't Disillusion everyone one else too. I suppose the reason is because there were so many members in the advance guard it would have been chaos to try to fly and keep track of nine other Disillusioned companions. The Order seems to have opted for a massive operation when they went to pick up Harry. Besides the advance guard there was a rear guard standing by. The Order may have had to make sure the Ministry wasn't monitoring Privet Drive too. It appears to have taken four days to put together this operation. Compared to having one guy following Harry in an invisibility cloak, this was like having an armada show up.

I think Moody's "I need to Disillusion you" is one of the great lines of the book, as an important theme is Harry's disillusionment with his heroes.

-The sparks that were the signal for the Advance Guard to leave..I don't know but I would be pretty surprised if I saw red sparks, then green sparks light up the sky of a suburban neighborhood. Also, flying in front of muggles and landing in the middle of a square? I find it hard they weren't noticed (Flying Ford Anglia deja vu)...I know all this stuff has been mentioned before but I'm just throwing it out there again. --Dumbledore

Yeah, I thought that after a large group of people dropped out of the sky on broomsticks, the Put-Outer was probably a needless precaution. Now, if they had landed on a roof first, then used the Put-Outer before descending to the ground...

- - - - - - - - - -
Ponine - Mar 24, 2005 6:07 pm (#58 of 528)
Dumbledore - When I read the books the umpteenth first times, I always considered Petunia's sparkling kitchen to reflect her neurotic, obsessive compulsiveness, and to paint a clearer picture of what she might be like. I bought immediately, as I was a nanny in a household where the kitchen would have made Pet's heart soar like an eagle. However, it does raise some interesting thoughts, as the unnatural cleanliness is emphasized over and over again... Tying this a tad in with another thread, would this then not mean that Petunia has a wand to perform this magic with? And that she thus has visited with Olivander?

One thing that always has bothered me about the Howler was how Harry, who has heard Dumbledore more than most, did not recognize his voice, while she did. Obviously, she may have limited contacts in the wizarding world, and that there really is only one person who ever sends her owls... Still, I found that odd.

Furthermore... That awful boy... What if Lily had another boyfriend before James, whom she did take some time to warm up to, and what if we know him? How ironic would it not be if it was Snape, for instance? Or Lupin?

- - - - - - - - - -
Steve Newton - Mar 24, 2005 7:54 pm (#59 of 528)
Well, I was batted down when I brought it up once before, but, I would not be surprised if Petunia had a house elf helping her in secret. Off to the oven I go.

- - - - - - - - - -
pottermom34 - Mar 24, 2005 10:37 pm (#60 of 528)
No , don't go into the oven, that's not a bad idea. That could account for the unnatural cleanness.
What if Harry didn't recognize the voice because it was an angry voice> Harry knows DD to have a calm raspy kind of voice. With the howler yelling and being shocked that Petunia of all people got one it may not have dawned on him who it was.

- - - - - - - - - -
Mrs. Sirius - Mar 24, 2005 10:56 pm (#61 of 528)
I so glad so many of you are picking up the many references to clean that JK drops. Ages ago I started a thread on the old board but then it wasn't carried on when we came back here. The other reference that she drops is of the physical health attractiveness. She describes Harry as having a "...pinched, slightly unhealthy look"

The other never explained description of Harry is "..as the pain in the top of Harry's head gave a particularly nasty throb, uncle Vernon yelped and released Harry as though he had received a an electric shock". Is Harry's head some how charged by that contact with the Dark Lord so that he's charged? or is it his mother's love in his blood protecting him?

When Harry is under attack and is looking for the wand he says "lumos" out of frustration and the wand light eventhough he is not touching it. Is that just because he is Harry or is any wizard worth his salt able to do that?

- - - - - - - - - -
Mrs Brisbee - Mar 25, 2005 6:37 am (#62 of 528)
My main objection to the idea that Petunia has a house elf helping her (sorry, Steve) is that it would require too much explanation. If the MoM is monitoring 4 Privet Drive for magic, and house elves use magic to clean, I think their magic use would have been detected every once in a while over the course of the past fourteen years. I suppose it is possible that elf magic is so different that it doesn't normally show up on the MoM "radar". Someone else pointed out earlier on this thread the inconsistancy with Dobby: his hover charm was blamed on Harry, but then the MoM apparantly didn't detect him Disapparating immediately afterwards. So can house elves hide their magic when they want to?

Mrs. Sirius, your noting that Harry is described as looking "unhealthy" is interesting. It is attributed to his having grown several inches quickly, but I think the word is put out there by Rowling to tell us Harry is not doing well physically or mentally at the moment. He feels abandoned, is under a lot of stress, and his scar hurts him often. Head pain is the hardest to tune out (I think), and it also would be like having some unexplained and incurable illness, which would be very frustrating and stressful.

On another chapter 1 note, it has just occured to me that OotP opens with "The hottest day of the summer so far was drawing to a close..." An intentional nod toward Sirius, the canine star whose heliacal rising lends it's name to the "dog days" of summer?

- - - - - - - - - -
Penny Lane. - Mar 25, 2005 2:31 pm (#63 of 528)
Okay, because of the Holiday, I think we should allow discussion of Chapters 1-5 until tuesday. Tuesday, we will start Chapters 6-10. It that okay with everyone?

- - - - - - - - - -
Mrs Brisbee - Mar 25, 2005 2:49 pm (#64 of 528)
Yes, sounds good to me.

- - - - - - - - - -
pottermom34 - Mar 25, 2005 8:45 pm (#65 of 528)
I don't think the MOM is monitoring Privet drive for magic, they are monitoring underage magic, as Harry is underage and shouldn't be using magic. Pet isn't underage so I don't think they would monitor her or the house if there is a house elf.
I'm curious to know how the MOM knows if someone that is using magic is underage. Do wands come with somekind of technology that tells about the wizard using it?

- - - - - - - - - -
Madame Pomfrey - Mar 26, 2005 10:25 am (#66 of 528)
I wouldn't think it would be the wand since Harry did wandless magic to blow up his aunt and the MoM was aware.Maybe they monitor houses where underage wizards reside-How?I dont know.Then again,How would the MoM know it was an underage wizard and not an adult performing the magic say at the Weasley's for example?

- - - - - - - - - -
Choices - Mar 26, 2005 10:34 am (#67 of 528)
It doesn't appear that the MOM can determine who does the magic, just that it is done. They were not able to know that Dobby did magic because they blamed it on Harry.

I would think a house elf would be pretty hard to hide - surely Dudley or Vernon would notice, especially over the summer when Dudley and Harry are home all day. No, I think the obsession with having a spotless house is just indicative of Petunia's personality. She is obsessed with cleanliness. It's what she does with her time - she cleans and snoops on the neighbors.

- - - - - - - - - -
Steve Newton - Mar 28, 2005 6:51 am (#68 of 528)
Sorry for the lateness, a busy weekend.

Chapter 4 Number Twelve Grimmaud Place

Molly is thinner and paler. Worry about Percy? (I worry because Crouch kept looking sick in GOF)

Serpents everywhere around the house.

Dementor attacks are life threatening situations. (Soul sucking seems to be considered the same as dying.)

Harry's anger and Ron and Hermione-"something icy flooded the pit of his stomach." Cold is often associated with Voldemort. Is this Voldemort's response to Harry's emotion or teen angst?

Harry says "Maybe he thinks I can't be trusted." I think that he got that right.

The Ministry of Magic doesn't want anyone to believe Harry. Why not? We have just been told that he spoke with no one over the Summer. Why the proactivity?

Why was it so hard to close the curtain over Mrs. Black's portrait?

- - - - - - - - - -
Mrs Brisbee - Mar 28, 2005 7:39 am (#69 of 528)
Yeah, my weekend was nonstop too.

OotP. Ch4 "Number Twelve Grimmauld Place"

Harry is happy to see his friends at first, if only they would quit mentioning Dumbledore. Each time they say Dumbledore's name Harry's mood take a turn for the worse. Ron and Hermione: "Dumbledore,dumbledore,dumbledore,dumbledore--" and Presto! we have CAPS-LOCK Harry.

The reasons Harry has to be upset with Dumbledore up to this point:

Harry has always trusted Dumbledore to protect him, but that protection failed when Voldy was able to snatch Harry from Hogwarts. Cedric was murdered, and Harry nearly was.

Harry is sent to the Dursleys and isolated there, apparently on Dumbledore's orders.

No one is to tell Harry anything, also by Dumbledore's orders.

Harry is being secretly tailed by Order members. Even Ron and Hermione knew this, but no one was supposed to tell Harry on Dumbledore's orders.

Despite Dumbledore's precautions, Harry has to fight off the dementors alone. Harry says: "Didn't work that well, though, did it?...Had to look after myself after all, didn't I?" I can almost hear the bitterness in his voice. His greatest desire, according to the Mirror of Erised, is to be surrounded by family, yet he feels he is left abandoned by Dumbledore when he needs him most.

The worst thing Harry has discovered so far is that Mrs. Figg is Dumbledore's spy. Therefore, Dumbledore has always known how horribly the Dursleys have treated him, but has never done anything about it. For a child, I think this failure is the biggest betrayal.

- - - - - - - - - -
Choices - Mar 28, 2005 10:47 am (#70 of 528)
I have to disagree with that last part. All Mrs. Figg can know of Harry is what she sees of him outside the Dursley's house. It is mainly inside the house that the Dursley's mistreat Harry, not while he is out in the neighborhood. Of course, Dudley and his gang pick on Harry, but then they pick on all the kids around the area. I don't think Mrs. Figg knows much of how Harry is treated by the Dursleys as they are very concerned with appearances and how they are preceived by their neighbors.

- - - - - - - - - -
Mrs Brisbee - Mar 28, 2005 12:55 pm (#71 of 528)
Going back to chapter 2, Mrs. Figg says to Harry, "I'm sorry I gave you such a miserable time, but the Dursleys would never have let you come if they'd thought you enjoyed it."

So Mrs. Figg certainly knew that the Dursleys wanted to keep Harry unhappy, even if she perhaps didn't know the full extent of the abuse. Although I would like to say that if adults --especially those who are acting as guardians to youths, like Dumbledore-- have evidence of possible abuse and ignore it then that is as much a betrayal as having solid evidence and doing nothing. I definately think Harry would see it like that, because he has always trusted Dumbledore to protect him.

Why was it so hard to close the curtain over Mrs. Black's portrait? --Steve Newton

Could Mrs. Black's portrait be an alarm system, intended to go off should undesirable's get into the house? She's certainly loud enough to wake an entire household. On another note, Mrs. Black calls Grimmauld Place "the house of my fathers", which sounds like the house came from her side of the family, rather than the Blacks.

- - - - - - - - - -
pottermom34 - Mar 28, 2005 10:23 pm (#72 of 528)
I wonder, If Molly and the other order members and the other kids weren't in the kitchen when they were telling Harry what was going on, would Sirius have told him more? I think he would have after all he let slip about the weapon.


Is it me, or does Molly seem awefully edgey? Why is she so proctective of Harry when it comes to Sirius? She knows he's Harry's godfather. So he hasn't been around, it'n not like he could've helped being in prison all those years. I realize she loves Harry like a son but Harry has faced Voldy alone more times than anyone and has been on his own (so to speak) for a long time, why all of a sudden does she feel the need to protect him?
How would Snape have treated Harry had they come face to face at Grimmauld Place, nicely or coldly like he is at school?


Why not use scourgify to clean the house?


Finally, were the "large as saucer" spiders (on pg.117) any relation to Aragog, or was that just an exaggeration?

- - - - - - - - - -
Penny Lane. - Mar 29, 2005 4:03 pm (#73 of 528)
I think we should move on to thoughts from chapters 5-10 now. I'm waiting for someone to return it to the library, but feel free to move on without me.

- - - - - - - - - -
Mrs Brisbee - Mar 29, 2005 8:42 pm (#74 of 528)
OotP, Chapter 5 "The Order of the Phoenix"

I wonder, If Molly and the other order members and the other kids weren't in the kitchen when they were telling Harry what was going on, would Sirius have told him more? I think he would have after all he let slip about the weapon. --Pottermom

I think Sirius was up to something else. He could have spoken to Harry privately if he wanted, then or at any other time over the summer, but he didn't. I think he was trying to establish his right as Harry's godfather with the other Order members, and force them with this play to abandon the idea that Harry should be denied information about what was going on. That whole argument in the kitchen was very illuminating (and entertaining).

When Molly offers her opinion on the matter, that Harry shouldn't be given information, she couches it in terms of what Dumbledore wants.

Arthur says, "Dumbledore knows the position has changed, Molly." He disagrees with Molly, but also couches his opinion in what Dumbledore would want.

Lupin on the other hand begins with the word "Personally," offering his own opinion without stamping it with a Dumbledore Approved sticker. His opinion is that Harry should get information from them so he can have a clear picture about what is going on, and later Lupin offers that maybe Harry should have some say in what he wants to happen. I really like Lupin.

Molly and Sirius have a nasty argument about Harry's guardianship. Molly to Sirius: "The thing is,it's been rather difficult for you to look after him while you've been locked up in Azkaban, hasn't it?" Ouch. For a messed up guy on the run from the wizard police, Sirius has been making an effort to do the best he can under the circumstances, and that must have really hurt, because it was true. Harry hasn't had a proper guardian to look after him since his parents died.

Voldemort only returned a month earlier, and neither Sirius nor Molly seem to be taking the stress of the new situation very well.

According to Mr. Weasley, Fudge thinks Dumbledore is "plotting to overthrow him." Possibly he means that Dumbledore could be voted in, but "overthrow" seems like a strong word, implying force. Dumbledore might end up in Azkaban for defying the Ministry. Trumped up charges? For "destabilizing" the government for saying Voldemort is back? Fudge quite alarms me.

At the end of the chapter, Sirius mentions "the weapon," Molly objects to them telling the kids any more, and it is Lupin who decides that the conversation is finished. Why did Lupin think that should be the cut off point?

- - - - - - - - - -
pottermom34 - Mar 29, 2005 10:07 pm (#75 of 528)
Maybe Lupin didn't want Harry to try to find "the weapon"on his own.
As far as Fudge thinking DD is trying to overthrow him, he acts like it during Harry's trial.
Please forgive me if this gets long but while reading I wrote things down so I could remember what to say. 1) Would the Centaurs be offended by the way they are depicted in the statue as looing up at the witch and wizard? With the way the act toward wizards and witches I think so.


2)What are they looking for when inspecting wands?

3)I wonder if Kingsley is going to give Harry all the photos of Sirius now that he's gone(although not in that scene) I think it would be nice if Harry had at least the one from his parents wedding.
4)Did a note about the change in the trial really get sent to DD or did he just respond to Fudge to see what his reaction would be?


5) Fudge sure got defensive, maybe cause his plans were spoiled! They way he got soupset, I have been wodering if he's under the imperius, or worse a DE.


(6) I thought it funny that Amelia Bones was more impressed that a 15 year old could do a patronus than she was concerned for the law breaking


7)Did Fudge really not know the dementors were sent, he keeps getting angrier at DD and Harry's answers. This is when he acts as if DD is trying to overthrow him. He is also getting very fidgetty (excuse the misspelling if it is)as if he knows what really happened that the dementors reallyu did attack but doesn't want anyone to catch on that he knows.

Does DD know who sent the dementors? Also DJU is awefully quiet isn't she?

Ok that's all I wrote down.

- - - - - - - - - -
Mrs. Sirius - Mar 29, 2005 11:11 pm (#76 of 528)
There is the policy on this Forum of no obscenity, which I think is appropriate not only because of the age of those with access but also because it is very offensive to many people. I do not have a problem with this policy.

I have noticed however, that in her writing JKR, does use some terms that could be offensive to some people. It's always used in a context that is appropriate to the character and situation. Notably in "A Peck of Owls' Uncle Vernon says " what the ruddy h***.." (page 33 Bloomsbury) (Jumping forward to OWLS, it is said at least one more time by Hagrid when under attack.) My British-isms are not what they used to be, but if remember correctly, some people consider the term "ruddy" to be considerably less than polite.

Earlier in this chapter, she also brought up a theme in an exchange between Dudley and Harry when talking about Cedric, that is offensive to some people.

I think that JKR has a remarkable ability to keep these books appropriate for such a large age range, while keeping the character's behavior appropriate to their age and speaking with enough realism of how the real world works.

- - - - - - - - - -
Mrs Brisbee - Mar 30, 2005 3:01 pm (#77 of 528)
I have noticed however, that in her writing JKR, does use some terms that could be offensive to some people. --Mrs. Sirius

Conversations in fiction are written to sound like what we think conversations are supposed to sound like in real life (am I making sense?). There are some situations which we expect to hear people use a few swear words. "Substitute" swear words like Gosh-darn-it-to-heck! will always sound I bit silly (I tend to use them and people give me strange looks), so I think Rowling has opted to use real and relatively mild swear words to keep her conversations sounding real. I also think that as her characters age she is writing geared more toward an audience with an older average age.

I thought it funny that Amelia Bones was more impressed that a 15 year old could do a patronus than she was concerned for the law breaking. --Pottermom

I'm thinking she probably oversees hearings for underage lawbreakers quite often, and is not the sort to blow it out of proportion. Send kids home with their wands every summer, and your bound to get infractions. In Harry's case, even if he did inappropriately use underage magic (which he didn't), the only Muggle witness was Dudley, who knows Harry is a wizard anyway. The Patronus was probably more impressive to her than the case against Harry.

- - - - - - - - - -
Steve Newton - Mar 30, 2005 7:54 pm (#78 of 528)
I'm running behind most folks. Chapter 5 comments.

12 scrolls.

Many complex images around Mundungus. How did he make the smoke disappear?

Molly doesn't want Tonks anywhere near the kitchen.

Goblins were killed near Nottingham. Is there anywhere that has a geography of England relevant to HP? Sometimes it seems as if the placement of some events is important but I don't know the relationships. Nottingham is, of course, where Robin Hood hung out.

Sirius was grim faced. Who knew?

Dung stole toads from Willie. Mundungus and Willie seem to be sort of business partners, in a sneaky backstabbing sort of way. They were both in the Hogs Head when the DA was formed.

There were 13 people at dinner. Who got up first? I thought that it was Sirius but this time it seemed that it could be either Sirius, Molly or Ginnie.

- - - - - - - - - -
Mrs Brisbee - Mar 31, 2005 6:57 am (#79 of 528)
Dung stole toads from Willie. Mundungus and Willie seem to be sort of business partners, in a sneaky backstabbing sort of way. They were both in the Hogs Head when the DA was formed. --Steve Newton

Lol. I never associated "Will" with "Willy Widdershins" before, but you're right, they could be one and the same.

There were 13 people at dinner. Who got up first? I thought that it was Sirius but this time it seemed that it could be either Sirius, Molly or Ginnie. --Steve Newton

Personally, I think Rowling is just messing with us with this 13 at dinner thing. I don't think we will ever be able to predict who is going to die by this method. Both Ron and Harry live on after the 13 at dinner episode in PoA.

OotP, Chapter 6, "The Noble and Most Ancient House of Black."

Harry does start to ask questions of Sirius, but nearly gets his head bit off when the conversation turns to Sirius's cousin Bellatrix and his other unsavory relatives.

Isn't Sirius's brother Regulus named for the Heart Star of the constellation Leo, and his Uncle Alphard named for the Heart Star of the constellation Hydra, the water serpent?

Sirius's Aunt Elladora started the family tradition of beheading old house-elves. How many elf heads on plaques were there? Are house elves perhaps very short lived compared to wizards?

Kreacher was most devoted to Sirius's mother. I wonder if one of his parents came from her family and the other from the Black House originally. Isn't his mother one of the beheaded elves on a plaque? Someone says so in some later chapter I think.

- - - - - - - - - -
scoop2172000 - Mar 31, 2005 8:52 am (#80 of 528)
Steve, GREAT catch in noticing there were 13 people at dinner Harry's first night at Grimauld Place. Well, of the people who were at the table, the first to die was Sirius, so I think that takes care of that issue.

But it raises an interesting point about the Christmas dinner in PoA when Harry and Ron got up from the table at the same time. Will they both die? Will neither, because their getting up at the same time cancelled each other out?

Or, as Mrs. Brisbeee put it, JKR could simply be messing with our minds.

- - - - - - - - - -
Steve Newton - Mar 31, 2005 8:56 am (#81 of 528)
scoop2172000, I can't claim credit for the 13 at dinner idea. I read it somewhere else. Maybe on the forum.

It does illustrate the point that you have to pay attention. Sometimes (often) these details slip by.

- - - - - - - - - -
scoop2172000 - Mar 31, 2005 10:26 am (#82 of 528)
Something that occured to me after my last post was that Ginny may have been the first person to leave the dinnertable that night. She was on the floor rolling butterbeer corks at Crookshanks when Sirius, still at the table, brought up the subject of Voldemort.

Ginny may have also been the first one to leave the room (unless Mundungus slipped out), because Molly ordered her out when it was decided Voldemort was going to be discussed.

- - - - - - - - - -
Mrs Brisbee - Mar 31, 2005 1:45 pm (#83 of 528)
I'll concede that Rowling may have been foreshadowing, but I doubt Rowling intends that the "when 13 dine together, the first to rise will be the first to die" thing to be something that actually and really happens every time in the wizarding world. If it did, more people would object to sitting 13 at a table besides Sybill Trelawney.

It is a bit vague at Grimmauld place, as Mrs. Weasley gets up in the middle of the meal to bring dessert. Afterwards Ginny gets down from the table to sit on the floor, then when everyone is arguing Sirius rises in anger, but apparently without any intention of leaving the table, as he sits down again. Then Mrs. Weasley drags Ginny off to bed. It is sort of a vague hint, but then if it were obvious it would spoil the fun of reading the book. (I once read this murder mystery by a very well known author, who for some unknown reason decided to titled the last chapter in such a way that it gave away the end! I had unfortunately read the table of contents and that spoilt the book).

That said, I think the book is full of subtle clues that Sirius is going to snuff it.

- - - - - - - - - -
scoop2172000 - Mar 31, 2005 2:07 pm (#84 of 528)
I think the "first to rise" means the first one who leaves having finished his/her meal. Getting up to grab something (like dessert) doesn't count in my opinion.

I'm not certain on this -- so correct me, folks, if I'm not -- but the unlucky 13 at a meal and the first to die curse comes from The Last Supper. Jesus dined with his 12 disciples-- so there were 13 at the table. The first to rise -- to leave -- was Judas, and he was the first to die, having hung himself in remorse very soon after and before Jesus' execution.

- - - - - - - - - -
Choices - Mar 31, 2005 7:10 pm (#85 of 528)
Scoop - that is interesting. I heard that a long time ago, but had forgotten about it - thanks for reminding me.

- - - - - - - - - -
Mrs Brisbee - Mar 31, 2005 8:10 pm (#86 of 528)
I think the "first to rise" means the first one who leaves having finished his/her meal. --Scoop

I would think so too, but you notice Sirius never leaves. So this might be filed under Vague Hints That Snuffles Might Buy The Farm, rather than a solid clue. But what the hay, since we are on the subject of vague hints, I want to return to the dog days of summer.

Sirius is from the greek name for the star, Seirios, which means "scorching", because in ancient times the rising of Sirius during the summer was associated with the long and hot days of summer. Apparently they also called it kyon which means "dog" when they decided that it would represent Orion's hound. The Romans borrowed the Greek's mythology, and called Sirius canicula (little dog) and the dry hot days of summer were dies caniculares, which exists in Modern English as "dog days".

The dog days of summer traditionally occur from 20 days preceding Sirius's conjunction with the sun to 20 days after. In modern times (as stars and constellations tend to drift over the centuries it is slightly different than when it occurred 2000 years ago) the dog days run about from July 3 to August 11.

Harry has his hearing at the MoM on August 12. Going to the Ministry and the end of "the dog days of summer" coincide. Yes, it is a very vague hint of Snuffles possible demise, and I'm probably barking up a wrong tree, but I decided to mention it anyway.

- - - - - - - - - -
zelmia - Mar 31, 2005 9:39 pm (#87 of 528)
I believe the "first to rise" does include things like fetching dessert or clearing the table, etc. It's not "the first to leave the room" or "the first to leave the party altogether". It's "the first to rise" - meaning the first person to get up from the table. It's a very old superstition - in fact, there is a novel by Agatha Christie entitled "Thirteen at Dinner". In that story, "the first to die" receives a telephone call, which calls her away from the table before anyone else. And indeed, she was found murdered the next morning.

Pardon my pedanticism, but I mention all of this only because it sounded like people thought Rowling had invented this as another quirk of Trelawney's.

Mrs. B, interesting info on the Dog Days of Summer. Personally, I can't help thinking of Al Pacino when I hear this phrase, but I am glad to have learned of this etymology. Thank you!

I think the biggest clue that Sirius would die is that he, himself, becomes the Grim - the Death Omen. Harry first sees Sirius's "apparition" in Crescent Drive. Then again at the Quidditch match. It seems a haunting (no pun intended) foreshadowing of Sirius's imminent demise.

- - - - - - - - - -
Steve Newton - Apr 1, 2005 6:58 am (#88 of 528)
Chapter 6, The Noble and Most Ancient House of Black

Ron asks "What's worse than death?" The question will come up again.

Harry's dream is very strange. It must be saying something, or many things.

They want to have "Mad-Eye have a shifty" at the dresser. I have never heard this phrase before. Is it a Britishism?

The tapestry is 700 years old. That would make it dating to 1290 or so. Is this a significant wizarding era?

An ancient set of purple robes attacks Ron. Purple being the color of royalty is this a hint that Ron is royalty? Mundungus rescues him.

- - - - - - - - - -
Mrs Brisbee - Apr 1, 2005 7:27 am (#89 of 528)
Ron asks "What's worse than death?" The question will come up again. --Steve Newton

Good catch. I never noticed the repetition of that before.

An ancient set of purple robes attacks Ron. Purple being the color of royalty is this a hint that Ron is royalty? Mundungus rescues him. --Steve Newton

Hmm, the purple robes belong to the Black household, so this seems to indicate that the Blacks had some royal blood. This can only mean one thing: The Half-Blood Prince is really the son of Doris Purkiss and Stubby Boardman!!! (er, sorry, i think i'm under the influence of the calendar date).

I think the biggest clue that Sirius would die is that he, himself, becomes the Grim - the Death Omen. Harry first sees Sirius's "apparition" in Crescent Drive. Then again at the Quidditch match. It seems a haunting (no pun intended) foreshadowing of Sirius's imminent demise. --Zelmia

I agree. The most solid clues lie two books back. I wonder if when the next major character dies we will all be able to see obvious foreshadowing of their fate from the previous books also? It is easier to spot these things in hindsight.

And I think most of us know that the 13 at dinner thing is an old superstition, the question is how "real" is it in Rowling's invented Wizarding World? Is it just for literary foreshadowing, or is Rowling having a good laugh at us for trying to read to much into it?

- - - - - - - - - -
Steve Newton - Apr 1, 2005 8:15 am (#90 of 528)
On the ancient robes thing. Maybe I'm obsessing but ancient has come up a time or two. Is 700 years ancient? The age of the tapestry. We know that an ancient magic saved Harry and that Hermione is studying Ancient Runes. There is a chance that they are all connected.

- - - - - - - - - -
Steve Newton - Apr 1, 2005 11:58 am (#91 of 528)
Chapter 7 The Ministry of Magic

Molly was wearing a purple dressing gown. Purple again associated with the Weasleys.

Arthur seemed able to use a muggle map pretty well.

Juddered? Its actually a word and this is a good use for it.

The Auror HQ sign is lopsided. Pretty careless for an important organization.

The Misuse of Muggle Artifacts Office is very low on the MOM pecking order. Next to a closet and smaller.

Arthur slumps against the wall with a stitch in his side. Similar to the snake episode.

Many MOM offices are named. Some will surely come back in an important manner. I love the Muggle Worthy Excuses. Is it excuses that will work with a muggle of just a wizarding expression for lame excuses?

- - - - - - - - - -
Dumbledore - Apr 1, 2005 8:29 pm (#92 of 528)
Just have to pop in to let everyone know that I'm still alive on this thread! Great work everybody, great thoughts. I have to catch up on my reading though and I promise I will post my thoughts on the next few chapters soon, probably some time this weekend.

- - - - - - - - - -
pottermom34 - Apr 1, 2005 9:41 pm (#93 of 528)
Arthur slumps against the wall with a stitch in his side, Similar to the snake episode-steve
Maybe this is foreshadowing for the snake episode.


Is it me, or does Molly seem to be really uptight about something in these first few chapters?

- - - - - - - - - -
scoop2172000 - Apr 2, 2005 7:43 am (#94 of 528)
I agree Molly seems very uptight, and not just during the first few chapters. My two-knuts' worth is that she's angry about the Ministry's denial He Who Must Not Be Named is baaaaaaaack. Frustration born of fear.

- - - - - - - - - -
Mrs Brisbee - Apr 2, 2005 7:53 am (#95 of 528)
I loved the Muggle-Worthy Excuse Committee's name too.

I also love how fatherly Mr. Weasley acts toward Harry in chapter 7.

Also, after sending a small army to get Harry from Privet Drive, why are the Order back to sending Harry out with only one escort? It's possible that an invisible Order member tailed them, but it still seems lax.

- - - - - - - - - -
Steve Newton - Apr 2, 2005 8:21 am (#96 of 528)
Well, I figured that Molly was upset over Percy but I have been very wrong about such things before.

- - - - - - - - - -
Mrs Brisbee - Apr 2, 2005 12:44 pm (#97 of 528)
OotP, Chapter 7, "The Hearing"

Harry has seen courtroom ten in the Pensieve, as a place where they question and prosecute dangerous criminals, like Death Eaters. Strange place for a "disciplinary hearing".

Fudge is the chief "Interrogator" at the trial, along with his Senior Undersecretary and the Head of the Department of Magical Law Enforcement (Amelia Bones, who was originally supposed to decide Harry's case by herself). Is this a usual position for a Minister of Magic to take, that of prosecutor in a trial?

Mrs. Figg lies under oath, saying she saw the dementors when she could not have (I'm assuming we all know that on Rowling's web site under Squibs she says that squibs can't see dementors). That's a really risky ploy. Mrs. Figg could have ended up in Azkaban for lying to the court. No wonder she was so nervous and frightened.

I do admire the way Dumbledore takes control of the trial, to make the court consider the renegade dementors, the purpose of the trial, and the absurdity of trying someone for underage magic in front of the whole Wizengamot.

About the dementors Dumbledore says:

"I was merely expressing my confidence that this matter will not go uninvestigated."

He glanced at Madam Bones, who readjusted her monocle and stared back at him,frowning slightly.

Madam Bones is Head of Magical Law Enforcement, and must be aware that certain things are being covered up or uninvestigated, like the death of Cedric Diggory. But it is also obvious that she is not under Fudge's thumb; it is as much to her as Dumbledore that the trial doesn't go Fudge's way. So were Dumbledore's words a rebuke to her for not doing enough on her watch, or a hint to her that she should take extra care investigating the dementor incident, because it might lead to interesting places?

Dumbledore has recently been demoted from chief Warlock of the Wizengamot --the body he stands before to argue Harry's defence. In fact, Dumbledore says he has been asked to leave the Wizengamot. Dumbledore seems to have fared worse at the hands of the Wizengamot that Harry does. Only seven of them vote to convict, including Fudge and Umbridge. It seems that most of those who voted Dumbledore out thought that this trial was just going to far.

- - - - - - - - - -
Choices - Apr 2, 2005 3:35 pm (#98 of 528)
If the MOM is so stupid that they do not know that squibs can't see dementors, then I say they deserve what they get. A MOM should be aware of the limitations of all the people they serve and I would think that squibs are a part of the wizard world, more so than the muggle world.

- - - - - - - - - -
Mrs Brisbee - Apr 2, 2005 4:18 pm (#99 of 528)
With about 50 people on the Wizangamot at Harry's trial, I am surprised that none knew that Squibs can't see dementors. Of course, maybe a few did know, and chose not to say anything. Since Madam Bones is Head of Magical Law Enforcement, and lawbreakers often get sent to Azkazban, this does seem like something she should be aware of. But then again, maybe Squibs just have a harder time violating Wizarding World rules with no magic. But then again, again, there are plenty of ways to break the law without using spells. It does seem unlikely that this is an issue that has never come up for Wizarding law Enforcement before.

- - - - - - - - - -
Ponine - Apr 2, 2005 5:13 pm (#100 of 528)

Mouth wide open* She LIED?!? I am shocked and stunned! How could I have read these books so many times and not have picked up on that?!? I have to reread that chapter again, I, I, I am speechless!?! What would have happened if someone called her on it, and Harry's only witness proved to be a liar?! That was quite a risk to take!?!? Or did Dumbledore somehow know that the people who knew the truth would not say anything and the people who would have made a stink did not know?!? Hm... food for thought.

[Julia H.]

Harry Potter and the Order of the Phoenix Book Read Along (Posts 101-150)


pottermom34 - Apr 2, 2005 9:55 pm (#101 of 528)
Was it fun to see Fudge squirm or what? I still think Umbridge was awefully quiet, afraid to give herself away? Or are the gears turning to think of other ways to get rid of that Potter boy.


What was Lucius up to? Was he sitting in on the trial invisibly?

- - - - - - - - - -
Mrs. Sirius - Apr 3, 2005 9:09 am (#102 of 528)
We must not forget that wizards have a great disdain for anyone that isn't "pureblood" wizard. Ron said he has a cousin who is an accountant, but no one talks about that.

The Wizengamot, the cream of the crop of the wizarding world certainly wouldn't bother concerning themselves with squips. They are not worthy of time spent. Were it not for Dumblore I don't think someone like Filch would have a position in the wizarding world.

- - - - - - - - - -
zelmia - Apr 3, 2005 11:44 am (#103 of 528)
Isn't Amelia Bones part of the Order? Certainly she is aware of it, as her brother - or somebody in her family - was in the Order the last time. Perhaps Dumbledore was simply hinting to her what her next Order Assignment would be?

As for Mrs. Figg, the Ministry clearly have no idea who she is; but there may be degrees of "disability" with Squibs. For example, there are those who are legally blind. Such an individual may function perfectly well in everyday functions, and even have no trouble reading, etc. with corrective lenses, but simply may not be able to drive a vehicle.
Or someone who is Deaf, but can hear certain sounds, such as loud music or dogs barking.
Therefore, the Ministry may believe there are Squibs who have the ability to see Dementors, especially one who is adamant that she can.

- - - - - - - - - -
Steve Newton - Apr 3, 2005 6:39 pm (#104 of 528)
Why couldn't they find something for Sirius to do? Just keeping track of where people were, good guys and bad, would be helpful to the OOTP and let him know that he was contributing.

- - - - - - - - - -
Choices - Apr 3, 2005 7:08 pm (#105 of 528)
I can't remember if Edgar Bones is listed as an Order member or if it is just mentioned that he was killed by Voldemort. I need to look that up.

- - - - - - - - - -
haymoni - Apr 3, 2005 8:31 pm (#106 of 528)
Steve - I think Sirius did everything he could for the Order from #12, but he was a man of action. The things that he could do, while helpful, just were not enough for him.

I think it is Hagrid who says that Sirius died in battle and that's how he would have wanted it. Sirius liked taking the risk. I don't think his tasks were enough for him.

- - - - - - - - - -
pottermom34 - Apr 3, 2005 10:31 pm (#107 of 528)
Yes Choices, Edgar is listed as a member. He is also in the photograph.


Speaking of Sirius, when Draco said to Harry on the train "I'll be dogging your footsteps", was it because he knew about Sirius being an animagus or was it a coincidence and he was trying to get a reaction? I think he knows something but isn't confirmed and he was trying to get Harry to slip. If he does know, how would he and Lucius find out? I thought Sirius was an unregistered animagus. How do they know Harry had a connection to or was in any contact with Sirius? Maybeone of the things Lucius found out from Fudge was that Sirius is Harry's godfather, and he just put 2 & 2 together. Is there a mole in the Order?

- - - - - - - - - -
ruthlesspenguin - Apr 4, 2005 12:05 am (#108 of 528)
Pottermom, I think the anser to your question is that there WAS a spy in the Order. Pettigrew knew about Black being an animagi, would probably have known that he was Harry's godfather and was aware that Harry believed his story. This information could have been passed onto Lucius via Voldemort.

<(')

- - - - - - - - - -
scoop2172000 - Apr 4, 2005 4:27 am (#109 of 528)
Ruthlesspenguin, I think Pettigrew definitely knew Harry was Sirius' godson, he (Pettigrew) being in the Potters' inner circle.

I don't think Pettigrew knew about the prophecy (after all, Bella didn't.) Pettigrew did know Voldemort had marked the Potters for death and that the family had to go into hiding. I would imagine James, Lily and Sirius would have discussed this with Pettigrew and in doing so explained to him the risks of becoming Secret Keeper.

Pottermom: I think Draco is old enough that his father has shared certain information with him, including Sirius' true connection to Harry and the fact that Sirius could transform into a dog. After all, Sirius had been hanging out at Hogwarts during Harry's third year, and Lucius would have deduced correctly that Sirius spent much of that time in dog form.

I'm sure at this point, Lucius has been having his son spy on Harry at Hogwarts. My guess is that Lucius told Draco about certain things to keep an eye out for, including a large black dog.

The use of the verb "dogging" and the fact that Draco emphasized it, is too specific to be a coincidence in my humble opinion.

- - - - - - - - - -
Steve Newton - Apr 4, 2005 6:02 am (#110 of 528)
pottermom34, my thought is that Draco mentioned dogging to let Harry, and Sirius, know that Sirius had been recognized. I think that he did this because Lucius wanted him to. But then, I think that Lucius is playing a very deep game.

- - - - - - - - - -
Steve Newton - Apr 4, 2005 7:39 am (#111 of 528)
Chapter 9, The Woes of Mrs. Weasley

Harry does not get angry when speaking to Lucius.

The book lists were late. Waiting for the DADA teacher? Are all years using the same book? F&G seem to have the same book as the trio.

A lot of heart references when Harry is talking to Hermione. So heartily that it didn't sound like him. Horrible hearty voice. (I think heart is key to the series so feel free to ignore this.)

There is a reasonable, calm voice in Harry's head.

"Ron must ahve something you don't."

When he speaks to Ron his voice had stopped sounding hearty.

What did Moody see when he looked at the boggart? He wasn't the closest, I don't think.

At least 15 for this dinner. Whew!

Ron's broom has anti-jinx varnish. I guess Harry's in POA didn't.

Moody has 2 invisibility cloaks.

Moody says "Better dead that what happened to them" about the Longbottoms. A possible answer to the "What is worse than death?" question.

All of the Weasleys except Ginny, Charlie, and Molly are seen by Molly when she confronts the boggart. Will these be the ones who die, or the survivors?

Why didn't Moody notice that Molly was in trouble?

Mally has also been having bad dreams.

- - - - - - - - - -
scoop2172000 - Apr 4, 2005 3:51 pm (#112 of 528)
A few thoughts on nightmares ...

It's natural under the circumstances for Molly's fears for the safety of her family to haunt her day and night. She's already lost family members (her brothers, Fabian and Gideon, both of whom had been in the original order.) Now, her husband and two eldest sons are in the Order, and she's well aware that Voldemort and his followers are capable of killing entire families, not just individuals.

Harry's dreams ... well the ones of Cedric in the graveyard are only natural. Harry was mentally traumatized witnessing a murder. Traumatized individuals quite often have nightmares about the experience. Harry's entirely normal in this respect. He's lucky he's not having daytime flashbacks, a sign of Post Traumatic Stress Disorder.

We know that other dreams Harry is having are not true dreams, they're visions he's having because of his yet-to-be-fully-explained connection to Voldemort's mind.

On another subject: I wonder what Moody saw when he looked through ceiling to check out the boggart in the writing desk. Could the boggart, aware of Moody's attention, shift into Moody's worst fear? Or would the boggart, unaware it was being looked at, retain its true shape?

Speaking of the boggart .... Steve, you noted that the boggart had turned into all Weasley family members except Ginny, Charlie and Molly herself. But what I found interesting is that there was only one non-blood Weasley the boggart turned into: Harry. Foreshadowing that Harry, virtually a member of the family already, will actually become a family member someday (i.e. marry Ginny?)

Ok, ducking dungbombs from all you non Harry/Ginny 'shippers, especially the Harry/Pansy 'shippers, ha, ha.

- - - - - - - - - -
Mrs Brisbee - Apr 4, 2005 7:33 pm (#113 of 528)
"Ron must have something you don't." I wondered about this. When Lupin says he himself was made prefect in the hope he could restrain his unruly friends, I had to wonder if something similar was going on with Ron. Harry's usually the one to not look before he leaps and run headlong into trouble. Of course, Ron usually backs him up, but being Prefect might give him a sense of responsibility, and the confidence and authority to back it up. Ron has occasionally given Harry good advice, like telling him to not go after Black in PoA, and warning him that Riddle's diary could be dangerous in CoS. I think Ron does have natural common sense that he just has to grow into (I actually see a lot of Mr. Weasley in Ron). As a Prefect, Ron is also in a position to protect Harry from the likes of Malfoy. Are there other things that mark Ron as a good pick for Prefect?

I really like Alistor Moody. He strikes me as very astute, and also compassionate in an abrasive sort of way. What was Moody's motive in showing Harry the picture of the original Order along with commentary on their deaths?

As for why Moody didn't notice Molly was in trouble, he was busy showing Harry the photo. When harry went upstairs and found Mrs. Weasley, Moody then saw she needed help and that's why he, Lupin, and Sirius went up (Harry suspected Moody had watched him go upstairs with his magical eye).

- - - - - - - - - -
Mrs. Sirius - Apr 4, 2005 9:19 pm (#114 of 528)
Taking a step back a bit, when Harry first encounters Ron and Hermione, and discusses is lack of information on Dumbledore's orders, he says -Dumbledore has other ways to communicate other owls-. This seem a forshadowing that costs him dearly later.

- - - - - - - - - -
Steve Newton - Apr 6, 2005 10:45 am (#115 of 528)
I think that we are to read up to chapter 10 so here goes.

Luna Lovegood

Ron and Hermione with crowns!

"I'm nobody." Emily Dickinson anyone? I'll have to scout out the rest of the poem.

The mimbulus mimbletonia has some nasty imagery around it. Boils, diseased internal organ, sinister, pulsing. A diseased heart perhaps? Its sap is green.

Pansy and Hermione do not get along!

Ron responds 'thickly' when asked about the Hufflepuff prefects. Why?

Ron doesn't seem to know Luna but they appear to be neighbors.

Fudge wears a lime green bowler. For you conspiracy theorists out there. Lime has many uses one of which is to help organic material, think bodies, decay. A death eater?

One of the Quibbler articles is about Ancient Runes. Hermione is studying them and still shows no interest.

The Quibbler says the Fudge has had goblins dropped off of buildings. Reminiscdent of Uncle Algie.

- - - - - - - - - -
Penny Lane. - Apr 6, 2005 11:23 am (#116 of 528)
I like to picture Fudge in that lime green bowler hat and just giggle. Sometimes, i think a cigar is just a cigar. JKR has lots of that type of imagry in the first book to keep us giggling (anyone remember Hagrid knitting on the train?)

If no one else is up to chapter 10, we can wait until friday. Otherwise, we should move on. Me, I can't read along with you guys because while my school library's computer claims to have the book, it's not on the shelf, along with a few other that I've looked for. When asking the people who work there I'm greeted with an apathetic, eh, go tot he public library. What good is a library on campus if it never has what one needs?

- - - - - - - - - -
Choices - Apr 6, 2005 11:34 am (#117 of 528)
Yes, I wonder what exact that large yellow thing was that Hagrid was knitting? We've never seen or heard of it since that train ride.

- - - - - - - - - -
Miriam Huber - Apr 6, 2005 12:10 pm (#118 of 528)
I quite like the reaction of Ginny on Neville´s "I´m nobody" (not that I am favouring a certain 'ship )-- as I like Ginny throughout the whole book. I think her reactions to Harry are much more appropriate and better for Harry than Ron´s and Hermione´s.

- - - - - - - - - -
Mrs Brisbee - Apr 6, 2005 12:25 pm (#119 of 528)
I wonder what exact that large yellow thing was that Hagrid was knitting? --Choices

A sweater for a sick thestral? A motor cycle cozy? Alas, there are some things to which we shall probably never know the answer.

Me, I can't read along with you guys because while my school library's computer claims to have the book, it's not on the shelf --Penny Lane

I feel for you, and hope it turns up. We proceed apace (of a snail), but I hope you'll be able to catch up. We are actually spending several days on each chapter, and taking longer than originally intended to get through the book.

OotP, Ch10, "Luna Lovegood"

Pansy and Hermione do not get along! --Steve Newton

Lol! thanks for the laugh, Steve.

Ron responds 'thickly' when asked about the Hufflepuff prefects. Why? --Steve Newton

Ron had just stuffed his mouth full of chocolate frog.

So, how are prefects chosen? It sounds to me like the Head of House fields several candidates (I'm basing this on what Tonk's Head of House said about her lacking certain attributes needed for Prefect), and then the Headmaster decides which of the candidates will be Prefect. This would mean McGonagall put Ron's name forward. Of course, I could be totally wrong.

Is there any truth to the rumors in the Quibbler that Fudge is trying to take over Gringotts? If most of the wizarding gold is kept in Gringotts, what happens if one side or another takes over the bank?

I did love the introduction of the Thestrals. But if they have been pulling the carriages around for years, why are they something better left to NEWT Care of Magical Creatures? Sorry to skip so far ahead, but it just seems to me that if they were going to eat a student, they would have done it long before now.

- - - - - - - - - -
Steve Newton - Apr 6, 2005 12:40 pm (#120 of 528)
Ron had just stuffed his mouth full of chocolate frog.

I missed that. Thanks.

It bothers me about the thestrals. In the case of horses there are other ways of noticing them than by sight. They make noise and, God knows, they smell. They also leave hoof marks. Why were these things never noticed about thestrals before?

- - - - - - - - - -
Steve Newton - Apr 6, 2005 1:58 pm (#121 of 528)
As an aside, Luna's "Wit beyond measure is man's greatest treasure" seems to be a JKR original.

- - - - - - - - - -
scoop2172000 - Apr 6, 2005 2:33 pm (#122 of 528)
Could "Wit beyond measure is man's greatest treasure" be the house motto for Ravenclaw?

Regarding thestrals: hmmmm: good question as to why they're not taught in Care of Magical Creatures by anyone other than Hagrid, whom we must admit has a "different" sense about what's dangerous and what's not.

Maybe it's because of the death thing: that the only students who can see them must have seen someone die. Most children do not witness someone dying -- children are sheltered from death. I imagine those who have witnessed death don't exactly want to go around bragging about it. Think of how heartlessly Umbridge asked Neville "Whom did you see die?"

- - - - - - - - - -
Mrs Brisbee - Apr 6, 2005 5:21 pm (#123 of 528)
Luna's "Wit beyond measure is man's greatest treasure" seems to be a JKR original. --Steve Newton

Yet it sounds so much like one of those old saws that you could swear you've heard it a hundred times before!

And Scoop, I think you are quite right about the thestrals. Death is one of those Big Issues that need to be addressed with care. I was forgetting that there are things that need to be handled delicately, and it need not be physical danger that makes such care necessary (Probably because when Hagrid is involved, I just automatically assume that physical danger is involved).

It also occured to me that first years take the little boats between the train station and castle, not the carriages. The point where thestrals would come up for students for the first time (if at all) would be during their arrival second year, but Harry and Ron flew in by car that year.

- - - - - - - - - -
Choices - Apr 6, 2005 5:35 pm (#124 of 528)
But, they take the carriages to the Hogsmeade Station when they leave to go home each year and probably at Christmas, Easter, and other holidays. We've just never seen that part as Harry never goes home at these times - just at end of school.

- - - - - - - - - -
Mrs Brisbee - Apr 6, 2005 6:34 pm (#125 of 528)
The first years took the boats to the train station when they went home at the end of the year too, but I did forget about Christmas and Easter. No idea if first years take the boats or carriages for those holidays.

- - - - - - - - - -
Steve Newton - Apr 6, 2005 6:51 pm (#126 of 528)
I just remembered. Luna says her "Wit beyond measure.." line in a singsong voice. Peeves outside Fluffy's corridor in SS is the only other occurrence that I can think of. It is probably meaningless but I've been fooled before.

- - - - - - - - - -
Mrs Brisbee - Apr 7, 2005 7:34 pm (#127 of 528)
These are the ongoing themes of OotP that I see shaping up in the first 10 chapters.

One of the major ongoing themes in OotP so far is leadership. What sort of obligations does government have towards its citizens, a teacher towards her students, or a guardian towards their ward? Children don’t get to choose their parents, guardians, or teachers. They don’t elect government officials, or even have say in who gets to be prefect. But regardless of how someone becomes a leader, society requires that those in leadership positions operate under noblesse oblige. But Fudge has placed his political well-being above his duty to the Wizarding World, and he is subverting the government to silence and discredit those he sees as a threat to his power.

On the flip side, how much loyalty and obedience do people owe those in authority? What if someone doesn’t agree with the person in authority? Should action outside the normal channels of government be allowed? Obviously we all can’t just pick and choose which laws we are going to follow whenever it suits us, or society would fall into anarchy. I don’t think Rowling intends to draw a blueprint showing just where the rights of individuals clash with the necessity of the State, but she lets us think about it in an entertaining way. For example, the Order of the Phoenix exists outside the governance of the MoM. Another interesting case is that of Fred and George, who simply declare that only prats become prefects, and refuse to give Ron and Hermione the respect due their positions.

Coming-of-age is another theme. Harry experiences disillusionment with his heroes, starting with Dumbledore. In “The Order of the Phoenix” during the after dinner argument, Sirius states that Harry is not a child, and Mrs. Weasley retorts that he isn’t an adult either. Both are correct; he is a teenager who is learning how to become a man. He needs to know what is going on to do this, but he needs not just the right information, but the guidance on how to use it. The support of his friends and family are vitally important.

Another important ongoing theme is that ignorance is dangerous. Fudge tries to prevent the Wizarding World from believing the claims that Voldemort is back, leaving them unprepared if the worst does turn out to be true. Dumbledore doesn’t want Harry to know what is going on, leaving Harry feeling abandoned.

- - - - - - - - - -
pottermom34 - Apr 8, 2005 9:31 pm (#128 of 528)
Excellent summary Mrs. Brisbee!

CH. 11 (I hope that's where we are)
Wonder what Umbridge whispered into DD, ear.
How could Ron be so hungry after all the chocolate frogs he had on the train?
Did anyone else think Umbridge's speech seemed to contradict the sorting hat in a way? I wish Harry had some kind of proof of LV's return just so he could defend himself to the people staring and the disbelievers like Seamus was being. I like how Ron defended him by using his prefect "powers" maybe that's why DD made him prefect.


Hermione on the otherhand seems to be on a bit of a power trip at least toward Fred & George.

- - - - - - - - - -
scoop2172000 - Apr 9, 2005 6:49 am (#129 of 528)
Hermione on a power trip? I don't know. I view it more as a continuation of a pattern we've already seen: Hermione being mindful of the rules. Certainly, she breaks the rules from time to time -- the most significant incident being (pun intended) time travel to rescue Sirius.

- - - - - - - - - -
Mrs Brisbee - Apr 9, 2005 11:25 am (#130 of 528)
I didn't see Hermione as on a power trip either, just trying to take her prefect duties seriously. Pottermom, do you think she is singling out Fred and George because of their comments when she and Ron were made prefects?

How could Ron be so hungry after all the chocolate frogs he had on the train? -- Pottermom

This is funny, because I also couldn't help notice his voracious appetite. I scribbled in my notes "Ron is ALWAYS hungry!" He seems to be experiencing some massive continuous growth spurt. My husband insists that when he was a teenager, he once ate 20 plates of spaghetti, and I believe him.

Umbridge's speech reveals her intent to control Hogwarts, beyond the DADA position. Interesting that she begins her speech with "The Ministry of Magic has always considered..." not "The Wizarding World."

Harry has begun to reap in person the effects of the Daily Prophets slander campaign. He encounters whispers, furtive looks, and fear directed towards him.

In a turnabout from the other books, Harry finds himself not knowing the password to Griffindor Tower, and it is Neville who comes to his rescue. Maybe this is foreshadowing that there will be many people who will unexpectedly come to Harry's aid when he most needs it.

Seamus's mother thinks Harry is a nutcase, but Seamus still wants to hear Harry's side of the story. Unfortunately Harry has reached the end of his rope by the time the encounter with Seamus happens, and it is not something he wants to talk about anyway. Harry's public persona has crashed headlong into his private life, and it's more than Harry can handle at the moment.

- - - - - - - - - -
pottermom34 - Apr 9, 2005 9:01 pm (#131 of 528)
Maybe that's what I'm seeing Mrs. Brisbee. I think she might be picking on Fred & George because she seems to be riding them about the rules. Of course they know the rules they could be trying to get a reaction out of her.

- - - - - - - - - -
Mrs Brisbee - Apr 10, 2005 7:37 am (#132 of 528)
Yes, I don't think Hermione's on a power trip, but there is definately a little power struggle going on there.

- - - - - - - - - -
Steve Newton - Apr 10, 2005 1:45 pm (#133 of 528)
Chapter 11-The Sorting Hat's New Song

The song makes it almost sound as if Hogwarts was 4 different schools.

"Clash of friend on friend." Hufflepuff and Ravenclaw also fought?

Do people really drink pumpkin juice?

I wonder when the hat gave warnings before.

Seamus seems to be asking reasonable questions and Harry goes off.

Isn't Seamus a variation of James?

During the argument is just about the only time that Ron acts like a prefect.

- - - - - - - - - -
zelmia - Apr 10, 2005 10:25 pm (#134 of 528)
Steve, I think the "friend on friend" phrase refers to Slytherin and Gryffindor, who had been friends prior to Slytherin's leaving.

Seamus is indeed the Celtic variation of James. And I agree with you that his is asking reasonable questions. If I may say so at this point, I admire Seamus for not accepting the ridiculous gossip about Harry, even from his own mum. On the contrary, he completely withholds judgment until he has a chance to speak with Harry. It is only Harry's behaviour that really causes Seamus to "go to the other side" as it were. And I think he stays there out of spite as much as anything else.

Sir Nick says that the hat has indeed given warnings before.

- - - - - - - - - -
scoop2172000 - Apr 11, 2005 8:14 am (#135 of 528)
I think Seamus came into the conversation with his mind almost made up that Harry was cracked. Harry's hair-trigger temper served to re-inforce Seamus' prejudices. In Seamus' defense though, he later was a "class act" when his faith in Harry was restored.

- - - - - - - - - -
Mrs Brisbee - Apr 11, 2005 1:50 pm (#136 of 528)
It's a bit of irony that this time it is Harry that is withholding the information that his classmates so desparately need to make informed decisions about what is really going on.

- - - - - - - - - -
pottermom34 - Apr 11, 2005 8:24 pm (#137 of 528)
I wonder if Harry got his temper from James or being around Vernon, or if its merely frustration. He gets told quite often to watch his temper.

- - - - - - - - - -
scoop2172000 - Apr 12, 2005 8:12 am (#138 of 528)
I think that being around Vernon, Harry has learned -- for survival's sake -- how to squelch his temper. Look at how hard he struggled to keep it in check around Aunt Marge. He squelches his temper to the point of explosion -- and thus he does illegal magic without intending to.

I think the change in his temper in Order of the Phoenix is that Harry's developed a short fuse. Part of it, I believe, is from having been traumatized one time too many: seeing Cedric murdered. Part of it too is that he's in full-blown puberty. Even really "good" kids can be obnoxious at times around age 15.

- - - - - - - - - -
Steve Newton - Apr 12, 2005 10:23 am (#139 of 528)
Chapter 12-Professor Umbridge

Ron is smart enough to ask why the twins are selling at a discount.

Ron also slings it pretty well to Hermione.

Are there any wizards cleverer than Hermione?

Parvati presents a fine argument against Umbridge.

Harry isn't very good at picking up subtle hints.

- - - - - - - - - -
Mrs Brisbee - Apr 12, 2005 12:30 pm (#140 of 528)
OotP, Ch 12, "Professor Umbridge"

Hermione quotes Dumbledore from the end-of-term feast in GoF: "His gift for spreading discord and enmity is very great. We can fight it only by showing an equally strong bond of friendship and trust." Harry though has been wondering if Dumbledore trusts him, and why their friendship seems to have eroded. Words to live by, I guess.

Ron balks at acting as prefect when his brothers are involved.

Hermione is mad because Harry and Ron don't pay attention in History of Magic. Ron successfully sweet talks her by telling her how much more clever than they she is, etc.

Cho seeks out Harry yet again. Harry thinks Cedric's death has probably affected her "almost" as badly as him. "Almost"? Harry is a bit self absorbed.

Snape's Importance of OWLs lecture mainly concentrated on how it would effect him rather than his students. Talk about self aborbed.

An idle thought here: Snape picks on Harry because he hates James. Snape also torments Neville. Did Snape at some point have a run in with Frank or Alice Longbottom, who were Aurors? Could Snape be taking out his dislike of Neville's parents on Neville? I'm probably way out in left field here.

Harry gets sick of listening to Ron and Hermione bickering, and blows up at them. It was good to finally hear Ron tell Harry that he needed to stop taking out his bad temper on them.

Umbridge isn't teaching at all, just having the kids sit and read from the textbook with no discussion or guidance at all. The new "Minstry-approved" way!

Umbridge is happy when Harry starts mouthing off in class, she looks satisfied. And she looks triumphant when she gets to give him detention.

McGonagall gives Harry good advice: use common sense and control your temper. But Harry needs to know more than what to do, he needs to know how to do it.

- - - - - - - - - -
scoop2172000 - Apr 12, 2005 12:58 pm (#141 of 528)
That's an interesting theory, Mrs. Brisbee, that one of the reasons Snape may have it in for Neville is that there had been bad blood between him (Snape) and Neville's parents. Frank and Alice Longbottom are described as being gifted Aurors. We know Snape used to be a Death Eater.

The Longbottoms' fate as insane asylum residents doesn't apparently generate any more sympathy from Snape as the Potters' fate as murder victims. And we know the reason Snape abuses Harry is because there had been bad blood between Snape and James Potter.

(Ducks dungbombs from Gina).

Getting back to the chapter: specfically McGonagall's meeting with Harry .... I view McGonagall's attitude toward Harry as an enormous shift. Here we see her stepping out of her role as a disciplinarian and instead treating Harry almost as peer in the Order. The old McGonagall would have disciplined him harshly. The new McGonagall is trying to help him rein in his temper (ha, good luck with a 15-year-old!)

- - - - - - - - - -
pottermom34 - Apr 12, 2005 9:13 pm (#142 of 528)
Well, we know why Snape picks on Harry , but not Neville. I also think he has more reason to pick on them. He knows how good of wizards both boys parents were, maybe by picking on them he's trying to bring out their strengths. Maybe he knows they can do better and the only way is by pushing them hard. (did that make sense? it's late)

- - - - - - - - - -
Mrs Brisbee - Apr 13, 2005 1:11 pm (#143 of 528)
Pottermom, I think Snape treats Harry so horribly in Potions class out of plain spite. I'm not sure what his motivations for treating Neville so badly are. Snape says, "Moronic though some of this class undoubtably are, I expect you to scrape an 'acceptable' in your O.W.L., or suffer my...displeasure." and then he looks right at Neville. Basically, he is telling Neville that he is stupid and not capable of scoring above an acceptable.

Later, when Snape is trying to teach Harry Occlumency I think you might be right. Snape seemed frustrated with Harry's lack of effort, and tried to "motivate" him with insults about his laziness. I'll have to read that section carefully when I get to it.

I view McGonagall's attitude toward Harry as an enormous shift. Here we see her stepping out of her role as a disciplinarian and instead treating Harry almost as peer in the Order. --Scoop

Yes, you're right. She was giving Harry information he needed to know and hadn't been smart enough to figure out on his own. Being nice, warning him to control his temper, and rewarding him with ginger newts for calling Umbridge a liar

Parvati presents a fine argument against Umbridge. --Steve Newton

She did indeed. Once Hermione got the ball rolling I loved how many of the kids picked it up and ran with it. It must have been a real shock to the fifth years to learn that their time in DADA was going to be a total waste because they weren't going to learn the spells, and would therefore probably fail their OWL. Since Parvati was so concerned with this, perhaps she has the intention of taking NEWT level DADA.

And something about Cho: when she is talking to Harry in the courtyard, Ron interrupts to interrogate her about her Tornadoes badge. He seems to be accusing her of being shallow, and only supporting the team because they are currently winning in Quidditch. But this isn't the case. She has been a Tornadoes fan for ten years. I think Rowling is trying to show us something important about Cho's personality. However it might look at a casual glance, Cho isn't fickle, but loyal.

- - - - - - - - - -
Madame Pomfrey - Apr 14, 2005 4:39 am (#144 of 528)
It is interesting that Snape picks on Neville the most only next to Harry.Neville's potions doesn't seem any worse than some of the other students.I find it odd that Snape chooses to torment the only two who could vanquish the Dark Lord.Perhaps Snape knows of the prophesy or part of it .He is always telling Harry that he is not special.

- - - - - - - - - -
zelmia - Apr 14, 2005 8:03 am (#145 of 528)
I think that Snape, having been the weak and 'picked-on' kid himself, is only returning the favour with regard to Neville. Snape is not a nice guy, his work for the Order and Dumbledore's faith notwithstanding. I don't think there is any more to it than Neville is afraid of Snape and Snape gets a thrill out it. Unfortunately, I have seen this in real life as well...

- - - - - - - - - -
scoop2172000 - Apr 14, 2005 8:42 am (#146 of 528)
Madame Pomfrey: Snape also takes pot shots at Hermione when the opportunity arises. He can't criticize her work, because it's top notch. But he can ridicule her as a know-it-all. I'd imagine there are other Gryffindor-bashing incidents too, ones we don't necessarily read about.

What we don't see is Snape's displeasure with Crabbe or Goyle. It would appear they're not much better at Potions than Neville. But Snape doesn't pick on Slytherins.

I did find it interesting that when giving his O.W.L. exam speech at the start of the year, Snape appears to have picked on only Harry and Neville.

- - - - - - - - - -
Choices - Apr 14, 2005 10:07 am (#147 of 528)
Here's an idea about Snape's attitude towards the kids - I'm not sure I even believe it, but I'll throw it out for general consumption.....

Love - we know how important love is. Harry has love for others - his parents, his friends, Dumbledore, Sirius, etc. In contrast, (for example) Lockhart is arrogant, self-important, pompous - basically only loves and cares for no one but himself. Perhaps Snape knows how important it is that Harry love, not himself, but others. Like Lily, he must be willing to die because of his love for others, if necessary. So, Snape constantly puts Harry down, belittles him, negates everything he does, to keep him focused on helping others and not becoming stuck on himself and how wonderful he is. He doesn't want Harry to become stuck-up and self-important the way Lockhart is. Maybe Snape belittles the others - Neville, Hermione, sometimes Ron, to make Harry feel compassion for them which also takes the focus off Harry. Snape is trying to keep Harry humble and make him concentrate on others rather than himself. Snape knows this will be a vital characteristic for Harry to possess if he is to successfully face and vanquish Voldemort. A "savior" can not love his life so greatly (or care for others so little), that he is unwilling to lay it on the line for those he must save.

- - - - - - - - - -
Steve Newton - Apr 14, 2005 6:56 pm (#148 of 528)
Chapter 13-Detention With Dolores

Hermione says "please stop biting my head off!" For those following the decapitation imagery.

Fainting Fancies would make pretty good weapons.

Hermione shows the twins that she plays for keeps and is very good at spotting peoples weaknesses.

I wonder if bewitching a quaffle is difficult magic. Ron does it independently.

Ron also gets Woods robes. A possible hint that he will be captain.

- - - - - - - - - -
Choices - Apr 15, 2005 11:02 am (#149 of 528)
Steve - "Ron also gets Woods robes. A possible hint that he will be captain."

Good catch!! I like that idea.

- - - - - - - - - -
scoop2172000 - Apr 15, 2005 12:02 pm (#150 of 528)
I concur, Steve; that was a good catch about Ron getting Wood's old robes. Though, I have a second observation to add: Ron's getting yet another hand-me-down rather than getting, as I suppose Harry does, new robes from Quality Quiddich Supplies.

I adore the scene in which Hermione threatens Fred and George that she'll write to their mother. It's one of my favorite Hermione moments in the entire series thus far -- and it's one of the few times we see Fred and George being deflated.

Umbridge keeps Harry in detention for quite a period of time each night. I wonder if one of her ulterior motives is to make his schoolwork suffer, given that he hasn't got much time left to do his homework. Perhaps yet another attempt at discrediting Harry? I mean. c'mon: it's O.W.L. year. He's got a lot of studying to do.

[Julia H.]

Harry Potter and the Order of the Phoenix Book Read Along (Posts 151-200)


Steve Newton - Apr 15, 2005 12:08 pm (#151 of 528)
I agree about the late hours of detention. An obvious setback to student endeavors. Harry doesn't seem to complain about the lateness, though. Perhaps this is normal.

The uniform was a hand-me-down. I don't recall reading where Harry got his robes from. Of course he has probably gone through several sets by now. I also see a suggestion that Ron is the same size at 15 that (Oliver?) Wood was at 17.

- - - - - - - - - -
Choices - Apr 15, 2005 6:58 pm (#152 of 528)
Yes, and the first description of Wood describes him as burly (if I remember correctly). That means he is a good sized guy. I do think it said the robes might have been a little big in the shoulders for Ron, but otherwise they fit.

- - - - - - - - - -
scoop2172000 - Apr 16, 2005 6:46 am (#153 of 528)
You did remember correctly, Choices, that the first description of Wood is "burly." He was a fifth year at the time.

Ron has repeatedly been described as being tall, so it would make sense that at age 15 1/2, he could fit into Wood's old robes, at least in terms of legnth. Ron is somewhat lanky in his build, so the robes might be roomy through the shoulders, chest and waist.

My guess is that Wood donated to the team the robes he wore at around age 15 and kept the final set of robes he wore around age 17, much like high school athletes keep their final uniforms as a memento of the glory days.

Nowhere in cannon does it state Harry gets new robes from Quality Quiddich Supplies. This is an assumption on my part. Why do I make this assumption? Well, when Harry first joined the team, he got a brand-new broom. It would make sense he got brand-new robes to go along with that broom.

I don't think there would have been a used set of team robes small enough to fit Harry his first year on the team. He has been described as being small for his age (well, at least until Order of the Phoenix, where he seems to have undergone a growth spurt.) He was the youngest player in a century. Too, first years almost never make the teams. Why would there be used robes small enough to fit a small first year?

So that's the reasoning behind my theory that Harry got new robes along with his new broom first year. Being wealthy, Harry would be able to afford new sets of Quiddich robes as he grew, much like he bought new school-uniform robes from Madame Malkins as he grew.

- - - - - - - - - -
Mrs Brisbee - Apr 16, 2005 8:15 am (#154 of 528)
I adore the scene in which Hermione threatens Fred and George that she'll write to their mother. It's one of my favorite Hermione moments in the entire series thus far -- and it's one of the few times we see Fred and George being deflated. --Scoop

I too loved the scene where Hermione takes on Fred and George. The twins are blatantly disregarding Hermione's authority, and are sure they will get away with it.

At the beginning of the chapter, Hermione tries to explain to Harry the viewpoint of his schoolmates. The only evidence they have for what happened is Dumbledore's word for it, and they want more than that. They want to hear Harry's version of events. Seamus keeps showing interest in what Harry has to say, despite their argument.

Hermione hides hats for house elves to find, thinking this will free them. Hermione is trying to use trickery to achieve what she thinks is a good end. After quoting Dumbledore on trust and friendship, no less. That sort of "friendship" will guarentee that the house elves will never trust her. It is Ron who uncovers her hidden hats, so the house elves can at least see them before they pick them up. He is respecting their right to make a choice.

Both Flitwick and McGonagall stress how important the OWLs are to the students' futures, and McGonagall reassures Neville that he is capable of achieving his Transfiguration OWL. Marked contrast to Snape's OWL speech.

Harry gets headaches over his right eye or right temple, but there is no indication that this is associated with his scar. Any particular reason someone would get a headache on the right only?

Luna surprises Harry with her public support of him. Hermione is rather nasty to her--"you can do better than her." Ernie Macmillan takes the opportunity to offer his public support.

Ron was afraid of what Harry's reaction to him trying out for keeper would be. He was relieved that Harry's reaction was positive, but still has to face Fred and George, who haven't let him alone since he was made prefect. Fred and George seem to sap Ron's confidence.

What does Umbridge do with her collection of blood-stained parchments? File them?

- - - - - - - - - -
zelmia - Apr 16, 2005 10:10 am (#155 of 528)
Why would there be used robes small enough to fit a small first year? Why wouldn't there be? This is a school for magic, after all. But just like the players themselves, school athletic uniforms come in all sizes. If they have uniforms to fit the girls on the team, I'm sure they can find a Quidditch uniform to fit an "ickel Firstie".

Any particular reason someone would get a headache on the right only? There are lots of reasons why even "the Famous Harry Potter" could be stricken with an ordinary, non-magical, non-scar-related, Muggle headache. For a start, he hardly sleeps. Also, as a Fifth Year, he spends a great deal of time revising so eye-strain could factor into it. He is under tremendous stress, which in and of itself is a major cause of headache.

- - - - - - - - - -
Ponine - Apr 16, 2005 10:36 am (#156 of 528)
You know, Mrs Brisbee - I really like the point you bring out about Ron, with him leaving the hats out into the open. I don't think he gets enough credit by many, and I think it is a small, but very significant, glimpse of his true character. It is quite insighful from a teenage boy, considerate and caring... *mumbling...emotional range of a teaspoon... tsk, tsk*

- - - - - - - - - -
Mrs Brisbee - Apr 17, 2005 4:37 am (#157 of 528)
There are lots of reasons why even "the Famous Harry Potter" could be stricken with an ordinary, non-magical, non-scar-related, Muggle headache. --Zelmia

I know that. What I was wondering really was if there is any significance to the getting the headache on the right side only. I don't get a lot of headaches myself, but I'm assuming that headaches might have different patterns depending on their cause. I like your eye strain idea --when is the last time he had his eyes checked anyway?

And I agree with you about Ron, Ponine. I think his occcasioal displays of insight show us what sort of man Ron will become.

- - - - - - - - - -
Steve Newton - Apr 18, 2005 6:29 am (#158 of 528)
Chapter 14-Percy and Padfoot

Nick says that Peeves lacks subtlety. Snape says the say about Harry later.

During practice "Harry was barely aware of what the others were doing." Not good training to be Quidditch captain.

Percy's letter came the same night as Sirius' floo visit. I hadn't realized that.

Note that Fudge had it almost right. Harry, not Dumbledore, was forming an army.

- - - - - - - - - -
pottermom34 - Apr 18, 2005 8:40 am (#159 of 528)
Any speculation as to who Umbribde's informant is about the DA, is it the same as the OoP? Is he working both sides perhaps?
Funny how the "Hog's Head" smells like "goats".

The bar keep at Hogs Head seem familiar to Harry does he realize who it is?

- - - - - - - - - -
Madame Pomfrey - Apr 18, 2005 11:51 am (#160 of 528)
The bar keeper at the Hogs Head is said to be Alberforth and Harry may recognize him from the "original order" picture that Moody showed Harry at the Burrow.

- - - - - - - - - -
scoop2172000 - Apr 18, 2005 12:02 pm (#161 of 528)
I wonder if Percy wrote a similar letter to Ginny, warning her to distance herself from Harry as well. I don't suppose Percy would ever bother trying to sway the twins.

Percy has turned from pompous to a jerk, to put it plainly. He views Ron's close friendship with Harry as a possible threat to his (Percy's) further advancement. It's bad enough that Percy has cut off his parents. But Percy takes it to a whole other level -- a pretty low level -- by trying to get Harry cut off from the Weasly family. I mean, why should Percy care if Harry is still friends with his family? Percy has made it clear to the Ministry he (Percy) is no longer allied with his family.

I was never overly fond of Percy as a character. And it doesn't surprise me that JKR said in an interview Percy was acting on his own volition, rather than under an Imperius Curse, when he did what he did to his father and to Harry.

- - - - - - - - - -
Mrs Brisbee - Apr 18, 2005 1:03 pm (#162 of 528)
Percy has turned from pompous to a jerk, to put it plainly. He views Ron's close friendship with Harry as a possible threat to his (Percy's) further advancement. --Scoop

True, and what really, really bugs me about Percy is that he doesn't think it odd that Harry's and Ron's friendship should be an obsticle to his advancement. It's not about how good Percy is at his job *coughcough* or what his opinions are, but who he associates with and what their opinions might be. And for Percy that's okay.

Fudge has really gone over the deep end. He has come to think (apparently sincerely) that Dumbledore is planning a violent overthrow of the Ministry. Whatever led him to that conclusion? Perhaps he started off thinking Dumbledore was going to unseat him by forcing an election, but Fudge's smear campaign was successful. When Dumbledore didn't back off as any intelligent politician whose claims aren't polling well would, Fudge decided Dumbledore was out to claim power no matter what. Although that doesn't quite add up. Fudge has gotten incredibly paranoid. According to Percy's letter plans are afoot to remove Dumbledore as headmaster, and according to Sirius it is only a matter of time before Fudge has Dumbledore arrested on a false charge.

- - - - - - - - - -
Steve Newton - Apr 18, 2005 1:52 pm (#163 of 528)
Some maintain that Percy's letter is actually a cleverly disguised warning to the trio. I don't agree but the line at the end that says, "Please think over what I have said most carefully, particularly the bit about Harry Potter," could support this view. Again I think that its a stretch and Hermione read the letter and did not pick up on it. I she doesn't see it I figure it doesn't exist. (Boy, would Luna hate me.)

- - - - - - - - - -
Mrs Brisbee - Apr 18, 2005 7:06 pm (#164 of 528)
No, I can't agree with that either. Percy seems to sincerely believe in what he is doing, probably because he is ambitious and his current viewpoint is the easiest and most convenient way to achieve his ends.

So Percy is in the camp that believes that Harry and Dumbledore are liars, and any word to the contrary should be squelched.

Most of Harry's schoolmates are probably inclined to believe the Ministry at this point, though they show a strong desire to hear Harry's story before they completely make up their minds. Seamus still wants to hear it even after his fight with Harry.

Neville and Dean believe Harry, as does Cho. Luna was the first to declare her support publicly, and Ernie Macmillan quickly followed suit because he thought Harry needed a better endorsement.

- - - - - - - - - -
zelmia - Apr 18, 2005 8:36 pm (#165 of 528)
Obviously none of us condones Percy's attitude toward Dumbledore, and especially his own family. But personally, I have to give him a certain amount of credit.

Percy sincerely believes he is doing right by his little brother. His attempt to warn Ron, to get Ron to see sense, is, in his mind, the right thing to do. And when you stop and think about it, it really is the right thing for Percy to do.

Percy believes that, by having been appointed Prefect, Ron has taken his first step to becoming a respectable, upstanding Wizard. But it's only the first step of a thousand-mile journey. Percy is so proud of Ron that even his divorcing himself from his own family cannot keep him from letting Ron know this. And he believes it is his duty, as Ron's older brother, to guide him - which it is. In spite of the fact that he knows full well that Ron won't give any credence to Percy's missive, he takes the time and very carefully chooses his words.

I don't believe Percy's letter is anything other that what it appears to be; I don't believe it's any more a heavily veiled code than it is a take-away menu. But I do believe that Percy's heart was very much in the right place when he wrote it. The fact that he chooses to reach out to Ron, however pompous, arrogant and just plain stupid we readers might think he is being at the moment, his letter to Ron shows that he hasn't completely turned his back on his family. I think there may yet be hope for his reunion with the Weasley clan.

- - - - - - - - - -
Miriam Huber - Apr 19, 2005 5:28 am (#166 of 528)
Sorry to go back a bit, but it will come again later: Seamus asking Harry about V´s return (and later in the Hog´s Head some/all of the DA):

You are right to point out, of course, that Seamus asks a question and Harry get´s hot. But on the other hand, I really liked JKR`s description of a kind of "morbid voyeurism", if you know what I mean. Like we are interested in reading some horrible details of some horrible crimes (look at the press!), I think she very good described this ambiguity at the Hogwart´s students again: They want to know, but they also want "the details", kind of "nice horror story".

And I think Harry feels this, and as it is human (I don´t blame the students, I would have been curious, too, I think) but inappropriate and very painful for him who has horribly suffered and was in mortal danger because of that return, he explodes. In this respect I find his reaction quite understandable. I wouldn´t like it, either, if someone wanted to hear a catastrophy of my life with this morbid interest in "details" like a horror film.

- - - - - - - - - -
Mrs Brisbee - Apr 19, 2005 6:42 am (#167 of 528)
But I do believe that Percy's heart was very much in the right place when he wrote it. The fact that he chooses to reach out to Ron, however pompous, arrogant and just plain stupid we readers might think he is being at the moment, his letter to Ron shows that he hasn't completely turned his back on his family. I think there may yet be hope for his reunion with the Weasley clan. --Zelmia.

I agree with almost everything you said. The best characters don't exist absolutely in the right, or in the wrong. I hold out hope that most of the characters will turn out all right in the end (though I don't hold my breath; it is possible characters like Draco or Pansy might mature into reasonable facsimiles of human beings, but I wouldn't count on it). Percy does care about Ron. I hope his love proves stronger than his pride.

You are right to point out, of course, that Seamus asks a question and Harry get´s hot. But on the other hand, I really liked JKR`s description of a kind of "morbid voyeurism", if you know what I mean. Like we are interested in reading some horrible details of some horrible crimes (look at the press!), I think she very good described this ambiguity at the Hogwart´s students again: They want to know, but they also want "the details", kind of "nice horror story". --Miriam Huber

Good post. You're right, there is a lot at work here, including ghoulishness. The students are both eager to hear the story and insensitive to Harry's feelings. He's a traumatized fifteen year old, and he doesn't want to talk about it. Of course, what he knows has world-changing implications for everyone, and can't just be forgotten.

- - - - - - - - - -
scoop2172000 - Apr 19, 2005 7:40 am (#168 of 528)
It's human nature for many of us -- I'd say most of us -- to be somewhat ghoulish. For example, many people "rubberneck" driving by car crash scenes, looking at the wreckage and what may be going on with the victims, rather than driving past without looking.

Most adults are subtle when asking ghoulish question. Children on the other hand tend to ask outlandish questions. Teens are somewhere in the middle, depending upon their level of maturity.

I view Seamus as being an ordinary teen in this respect, morbidly curious and not yet adept at hiding it.

- - - - - - - - - -
Steve Newton - Apr 19, 2005 7:55 am (#169 of 528)
I didn't view Seamus as being ghoulish. I thought that he was trying to get needed information on which to make a decision.

- - - - - - - - - -
zelmia - Apr 19, 2005 8:20 am (#170 of 528)
I agree with Steve. Seamus seems to have been reserving judgement until he could actually have a chance to speak to Harry directly. He has spent the entire summer listening to his mum rail against Harry, one of Seamus's good friends. Confronting Harry was no easy job for Seamus. He clearly dreaded having that discussion but he also seemed to feel that he and Harry were good enough friends to be able to ask Harry point-blank about what had happened. It was Harry, in this case, who turned his back on an opportunity to be taken seriously.

- - - - - - - - - -
Steve Newton - Apr 19, 2005 11:09 am (#171 of 528)
Chapter 15-The Hogwarts High Inquisitor

Why inquisitor? I can't think of any good associations with the word.

Dumbledore did have a candidate for the DADA position, Snape.

Where is Wiltshire, the Malfoy mansion. Is it near Stonehenge?

Tiberius Ogden must be the heir to the firewhiskey fortune.

Is this the same Madame Marchbanks who is an OWL examiner and who tested Dumbledore?

Fred says "Nothing wrong with a good P." I have to agree.

If a counterjinx is just a name that people use to make jinxes more acceptable does this suggest that defense against the dark arts is just a name that makes the dark arts more acceptable? Is DADA a for of Dark Arts?

Ron vanished all of the mouse but the tail?

Hermione's DA idea showed good logical thinking and decisiveness. As early as the first month of the school year she knows where things are going and what has to be done.

A lot of people seem to tell Harry that something is obvious.

Why won't people say Voldemort's name? I haven't seen any negative affects yet.

The bowl of murtlap seems to parallel something happening to Harry.

- - - - - - - - - -
Mrs Brisbee - Apr 19, 2005 12:31 pm (#172 of 528)
OotP, Ch15, "The Hogwarts High Inquisitor"

In the Daily Prophet, the parent interviewed in the article is Lucius Malfoy. How much of a plant is that? In opposition Madam Marchbanks is quoted, but then the paper goes on to discredit her with "links to subversive goblin groups."

Snape seems to have given Hermione's essay an "A". Hard to believe it didn't deserve an "O".

I wonder if there really is a grade "T", and what it actually stands for.

Where does Umbridge find the time to inspect classes, and "teach"?

Harry just doesn't know when to keep his mouth shut.

McGonagall puts Umbridge in her place in front of a room full of students. Not something that will endear McGonagall to Umbridge.

Ron advises Harry to tell McGonagall about what goes on in his detention, but Harry refuses. He thinks it is a fight Umbridge would win.

- - - - - - - - - -
pottermom34 - Apr 19, 2005 9:53 pm (#173 of 528)
How does Umbridge find out about the DA meeting and any other things going on?


Inquisitor actually fits well, inquisitive means given to ask questions, curious. Umbridge is nosing around to find something to use against DD and Harry, is spying for Fudge. Maybe even for a higher power than Fudge, like Volemort.


I wonder if Cho really believes Harry and likes him or if she is after what really happened that night.>br>

I believe The Madame Marchbanks mentioned is the same one that tested DD. I think he or someone else was surprised she was still testing, or else Harry said she looked as if she had been that old. I don't remember exactly.
You're right Harry doesn't know how to keep his mouth shut. But I don't blame him, under the circumstances, I don't know if I'd be able to hold my tongue either.

- - - - - - - - - -
Steve Newton - Apr 20, 2005 5:55 am (#174 of 528)
Harry's detentions lessen as the year progresses. He learns some self control.

- - - - - - - - - -
Mrs Brisbee - Apr 20, 2005 6:58 am (#175 of 528)
I wonder if Cho really believes Harry and likes him or if she is after what really happened that night.>br> --Pottermom

I've racked my brains, but can't think of anything that would indicate that Cho doesn't truly believe Harry, or that shows she doesn't really like him. She enjoyed playing Quidditch against him in PoA. She has been nice to Harry, even when the rest of the school wasn't (GoF). She seems to like Harry just fine. There really isn't any reason to doubt that she believes Harry at this point, although most of the evidence proving she does comes after this point in the books. Her reason for joining the DA, for example, is because of what happened to Cedric. His death has profoundly effected her, and she wants to do something constructive: learn to fight Voldemort. I also do think she wants to learn from Harry what exactly happened to Cedric. Anytime anyone loses a loved one of course we want to know exactly what happened. But I don't see any duplicity on her part.

- - - - - - - - - -
pottermom34 - Apr 20, 2005 9:50 am (#176 of 528)
That's all true and I agree with you about her reasons and everything. That was just a stray thought in my head I wondered about.Because in the first meeting at Hogs Head, the first things asked (by almost everyone) was what happenend that night.

- - - - - - - - - -
Mrs Brisbee - Apr 20, 2005 7:13 pm (#177 of 528)
I guess we all examine what the characters say and do, and ask ourselves if they really mean it.

Another theme that's developing in OotP is "trust", which is the confidence that someone is believable and reliable, and the obligation that goes with that confidence.

Hermione quoted Dumbledore from the end of GoF about Voldemort's return: "His gift for spreading discord and enmity is very great. We can fight it only by showing an equally strong bond of friendship and trust."

Dumbledore makes mistakes by not talking to Harry, letting their trust erode. In fact, Harry says to Ron and Hermione in Chapter 4, "Number Twelve Grimmauld Place": "Maybe he thinks I can't be trusted". Hermione is trying to free house elves by tricking them. These are two characters I usually expect to show better sense.

Distrust abounds. The Order follows Harry without his knowledge. Arthur thinks Percy was being used as a spy. Snape spies on Voldemort for the Order, but he is not trusted by all. Umbridge tries to get students to spy for her.

The characters need to pick whom they will trust, and we need to decide which characters we trust.

It is easy for me to see why so many in the Wizarding World don't trust Harry and Dumbledore's story. With no hard evidence to back it up, and the Ministry and newspaper against them, they will have to make their decision based on how trustworthy they believe them to be. Harry seems to feel that because he is telling the truth, that should be enough. It is a frustration I can sympathize with. But those who are looking in from outside need something more, they need to be able to question Harry and judge whether or not he is telling the truth for themselves.

If this is really rambly it's because I am very tired.

- - - - - - - - - -
Ponine - Apr 21, 2005 3:51 am (#178 of 528)
Mrs Brisbane - I agree with you - once again

What I think is interesting, but also very human, is that Harry in essence is asking his peers to trust him (I know, not directly asking), as he is not about to go in detail about Cederic's death. And, sure enough, the DA's do. Harry, however, does not extend that same trust to Dumbledore, even though he has much more reasons to trust DD than the students have to trust Harry...

- - - - - - - - - -
Steve Newton - Apr 21, 2005 6:07 am (#179 of 528)
The trust theme would seem to be a counterpoint to the disillusionment theme. From Moody's spell to the end of the book Harry is disillusioned about many things. The Daily Prophet, the Ministry, Dumbledore.

- - - - - - - - - -
Mrs Brisbee - Apr 21, 2005 6:18 am (#180 of 528)
Yes, Harry is feeling very ambivalent towards Dumbledore; he wants to trust him, but is confused by what he feels is Dumbledore's rejection of him. Wasn't Harry thinking --when Ron was advising him to talk to Dumbledore about the detentions with Umbridge-- that he wasn't going to talk to Dumbledore when Dumbledore wasn't talking to him? Come to think of it, didn't he act the same way when he and Ron fought in GoF? Harry has got to be one of the most pigheaded people on the face of the earth. It is a handy characteristic when you're battling for your life against Lord Voldemort in a graveyard, but not so handy when it comes to sorting out relationships. Of course, it also makes Harry a very entertaining character to read about

- - - - - - - - - -
scoop2172000 - Apr 21, 2005 7:44 am (#181 of 528)
It's true Harry did adopt an "I'm not going to talk to him unless he talks to me first" attitude toward Dumbledore in Order of the Phoenix and Ron in Goblet of Fire.

But Harry did suggest he and Ron make the first move to reconcile with Hermione in Prisoner of Azkaban. They'd stopped talking to her because his new Firebolt was consfiscated on Christmas. But as soon as Harry got the broom back, he suggested that he and Ron make up with Hermione.

- - - - - - - - - -
Mrs Brisbee - Apr 21, 2005 7:31 pm (#182 of 528)
OotP, Ch16, "In The Hog's Head"

Viktor told Hermione that Harry knew how to do stuff that he didn't, even though Viktor was in his final year at school. What stuff, I wonder? Is it because Durmstrang puts so much emphasis on the Dark Arts that they neglect other aspects of magic, or is Viktor talking about how Harry comports himself? Or maybe he was just being nice because he likes Hermione.

Harry is worried that Sirius will show up at Hogsmeade. Harry spends a lot of time worrying about the safety of Sirius.

We know from later in the book that it is Mungdungus disguised as the witch in the Hog's Head. Does anyone have any idea how he beat the trio there? This has always kind of bugged me.

Hermione on how many will show up: "Just a couple of people." LOL! Perhaps she wasn't sure how many of them would show up, or that Harry would get cold feet (I suspect the latter). She is very happy at the number that do show up. At least 11 of the 25 are fifth years.

Anthony Goldstein puts a nervous Hermione at ease with his "Hear, hear." It must have been good to get an early endorsement for her opinion and idea.

Michael Corner asks her if the reason for this is because she wants to pass her OWL, but he is "watching her closely". Trying to ascertain her real motives.

Once Hermione states that the plan is be trained in DADA because Voldemort has returned, Zacharias Smith starts his argument with "Where's the proof..." The Voldemort being back story is based on Dumbledore believing Harry. "I think we've got the right to know exactly what makes him say You-Know-Who is back." Zacharias is tactless, insensitive, and asks pertinent questions. Maybe after he leaves school he'll become a reporter, and show Rita Skeeter and the Daily Prophet how news reporting should be done.

When Harry goes to answer, everybody is listening hard. Most of them wouldn't ask Harry directly, but they will pay attention when someone else does. Zacharias wants the details on how Cedric died, and Harry thinks this is intrusive.

Susan Bones gets the meeting back on track. Perhaps because her family lost relatives in the last war she has empathy for Harry's situation.

Terry Boot, Neville, Cho, and Michael Corner all praise Harry's abilities. They make it clear that they think he is the right person to teach them.

Angelina, Cho, and Zacharias all want to make sure Quidditch is placed first.

When Arguing with Luna about whether or not Heliopaths exist, Hermione snaps "...where's the proof..." echoing Zacharias Smith.

The Infamous Contract! Hermione doesn't mention the jinx on the parchment, but says: "So if you sign, you're agreeing not to tell Umbridge--or anybody else--what we're up to." So what are they up to? They have agreed that they want to learn DADA from Harry.

Hermione about the list: "Do you really think I'd leave that list lying around?" Bwaahaahaahaa! Okay, everyone who saw trouble coming raise their hands!

Marietta signs the list, giving Cho a reproachful look.

- - - - - - - - - -
scoop2172000 - Apr 22, 2005 6:55 am (#183 of 528)
Loved your observation, Mr. Brisbee, that Zacharias "is tactless, insensitive and ask pertinent questions" so in your opinion, he'd make a good reporter. I used to be a reporter, and the profession required me to sometimes be tactless and insensitive in my pursuit of the truth.

And you're right on in your opinion of Zacharias. Take ten points.

- - - - - - - - - -
Steve Newton - Apr 22, 2005 8:03 am (#184 of 528)
Edited Apr 22, 2005 8:40 am
Chapter 16-In the Hog's Head

Wasn't the Hog's Head the headquarters for a goblin rebellion? I should have listened in Binn's class. It is mentioned that the floor is stone.

Hogs, pigs and boars seem to have been mentioned quite often in the series.

The DA has 28 members. For a couple of hours later it will get up to 29 and then back to 28. (Assuming that Marietta does not return.) Is 28 the highest number of Educational Decree that we see?

Unofficial rule of the Wizarding World-Do NOT give pointy things to the twins!

Everyone was told that by signing they were agreeing to not tell anyone.

- - - - - - - - - -
Choices - Apr 22, 2005 10:23 am (#185 of 528)
Scoop - "They'd stopped talking to her because his new Firebolt was consfiscated on Christmas. But as soon as Harry got the broom back, he suggested that he and Ron make up with Hermione."

I find that interesting - Harry gets the broom back in time to ride it in the next Quidditch match. OK, all is well! So, he graciously suggests that he and Ron should "forgive" Hermione (for caring about Harry's safety) and begin talking to her again. But, I have always wondered what would have happened if Harry had not gotten the broom back in time. How long would they have stayed angry with Hermione and continued the silent treatment?

- - - - - - - - - -
pottermom34 - Apr 22, 2005 11:05 am (#186 of 528)
Ch 17, Educational Decree number Twenty Four

How did Umbridge find out about the meeting? Who else was in the Hog's Head besides Mundungus? Or is Mundungus working both sides of the fence (so to speak). It bugs me as too how he got there before the kids did. Maybe he's been invisible inside Hogwarts.

The broomstick is interesting, Maybe he realized what a jerk he was being Hermione was only looking after him and trying to help.


I wish they wouldn't have put that at the end of the POA movie it's going to confuse the crap out of the non readers. They'll probably keep that whole scene out of the OotP movie. It won't be needed. Thanks to Cauron.

- - - - - - - - - -
Steve Newton - Apr 22, 2005 11:12 am (#187 of 528)
Mundungus and Willy Widdershins are both in the Hog's Head. We get no description of them meeting but they have done business together before. Isn't Will later revealed to be the source?

- - - - - - - - - -
pottermom34 - Apr 22, 2005 11:24 am (#188 of 528)
That's possible , could've been something I missed, Don't remember.

- - - - - - - - - -
Mrs Brisbee - Apr 22, 2005 12:07 pm (#189 of 528)
Yes, Willy is revealed to be the source by Umbridge in "The Centaur and the Sneak". I remember one of the portraits in Dumbledore's office being incensed at the Ministry cutting Willy a deal in exchange for information. He was in trouble because he was responsible for the regurgitating toilets.

- - - - - - - - - -
Choices - Apr 22, 2005 5:45 pm (#190 of 528)
You are right Mrs. Brisbee. Willy is evidently working for Umbridge. In another thread (can't remember where now), I questioned if it might not have been Willy who got Dung away when he was supposed to be on duty watching Harry - the time Umbridge sent the dementors to Little Whinging. Willy could have tempted Dung away with a deal on "hot" cauldrons - on Umbridges' request, of course.

- - - - - - - - - -
Mrs Brisbee - Apr 22, 2005 7:17 pm (#191 of 528)
I remember reading that--somewhere. Can't remember what thread now either. I think Steve Newton suggested way back that Willy Widdershins and Will of the Oft Traded Toads were one and the same. Makes sense that Mungdungus would know him. I'm not happy with Mungdungus coincidentally disappearing right before the dementor attack. I'm also not happy with the idea that Umbridge might have known he was there in the first place, though.

Another comment I wanted to make about the jinxed list is that it ties in with the "trust" theme. I tend to think of the jinx as a necessary precaution, but I wonder if Hermione's failure to mention the magical nature of this contract will have repercussions. Even those who agree with her wholeheartedly about something might be a little leery of adding their name to any list she hands them --most people like to know all the clauses of contracts they sign. She has been going around trying to sign people up for S.P.E.W., and who knows what her next project might be.

- - - - - - - - - -
Steve Newton - Apr 23, 2005 5:34 am (#192 of 528)
Chapter 17-Educational Decree Twenty-Four

Harry thinks that "he was a key part of the rebellion."

Going up to the girls dorm Ron makes it to the 6th step, not the seventh. I have wondered if this means that he will not make it to the 7th book. Round Pink Spider has suggested that 7 has become a symbol of maturity and that Ron has to mature to make it up to Hermione.

Binns calls Harry Perkins. The same Perkins who is Arthur's office mate?

Once again Malfoy's taunts could be taken as warnings.

Snape WANTS Harry to know the Strengthening Spell.

Trelawney is not a competent teacher. DJU is correct.

Mundungus was watching Harry but got to the Hog's Head before Harry. Very strange.

There is a missing Invisibility Cloak.

- - - - - - - - - -
Mrs Brisbee - Apr 23, 2005 6:13 am (#193 of 528)
Harry thinks that "he was a key part of the rebellion."

Nice catch on that phraseology.

Binns calls Harry Perkins. The same Perkins who is Arthur's office mate?

That's what I thought, too. The gargoyle outside the teacher's lounge calls Harry sunny Jim. Is this a Briticism (like "buddy" is in America) or does the gargoyle think he looks like James?

Snape WANTS Harry to know the Strengthening Spell.

That's an interesting idea. What does it do? (Like Harry, I wasn't paying attention in Potions either.)

There is a missing Invisibility Cloak.

That's the one Sturgis Podmore had when he was arrested by the Ministry for trying to break into the DoM. The Ministry probably has it. Whether or not they'll give it back once Podmore's six months in Azkaban are up I don't know.

At the beginning of the chapter, when they discover in the morning the big Education Decree No.24 sign on the notice board (covering, among other things, Fred and George's new tester recruiting poster), Ron accuses Hermione of being naive to think none of the people who showed up to the Hog's Head could have gone to Umbridge, saying just because she was "honorable and trustworthy" doesn't mean everyone is. She interrupts to tell Harry and Ron about the jinx.

- - - - - - - - - -
scoop2172000 - Apr 23, 2005 6:25 am (#194 of 528)
"Mundungus was watching Harry but got to the Hog's Head before Harry. Very strange."

Mundungus was supposed to be on duty watching Harry at 4 Privet Drive on what turned out to be the night of the Dementor attack. We later learned Mundungus has slipped away to do a deal on stolen cauldrons.

My guess is that on the Saturday of this particular Hogsmeade weekend, Mundungus was assigned to tail Harry around the village, but yet again, Dung succumbed to the temptation of criminal activity, hooking up with fellow-crook Willy. It was pure co-incidence that Harry ended up in the Hog's Head, where Dung and Willy were doing dodgy business.

What I find strange is the Order trusted Dung to do guard duty again after the near-disaster involving the Dementors. Too, I always found it strange that Sirius had not been furious with Dung over the events outside 4 Privet Drive.

- - - - - - - - - -
Steve Newton - Apr 23, 2005 6:43 am (#195 of 528)
scoop, that makes sense to me. I think that Mundungus is trustworthy but not reliable. He needs LOTS of supervision.

- - - - - - - - - -
Mrs Brisbee - Apr 23, 2005 8:06 am (#196 of 528)
I've thought of another explanation for Mungdungus beating them to the Hog's Head. Hermione had questioned Flitwick about the bar to make sure it wasn't out of bounds. Suppose Flitwick is in the Order, or else he talked to McGonagall about her prefect asking questions about a shady pub. So perhaps Mungdungus was placed ahead of time in the Hog's Head, knowing that was their eventual destination? Some other Order member might have been following the trio while they walked around outside.

- - - - - - - - - -
scoop2172000 - Apr 23, 2005 9:08 am (#197 of 528)
I can't see McGonagall condoning Harry's formation of a secret society, especially one that could get him into deep trouble with Umbridge -- and thus the Ministry -- were Umbridge to find out.

McGonagall's message to Harry, as far as Umbridge was concerned, was to keep his head down and stay out of trouble.

My guess is that McGonagall and Dumbledore didn't know about the DA until the confrontation with Fudge and Umbridge. Though how they didn't know, I admit, puzzles me, given that Molly Weasley knew about it. Molly made Sirius tell Ron to stay out of it. Mundungus knew about it too.

- - - - - - - - - -
Choices - Apr 23, 2005 10:24 am (#198 of 528)
It's odd that Mundungus was disguised as a witch and Willy was all wrapped up in bandages. I can understand Dung's disguise better than Willy's. Is Willy on the lam and didn't want to be recognized?

- - - - - - - - - -
pottermom34 - Apr 23, 2005 10:37 am (#199 of 528)
Maybe Dung's business with Willy is a cover-up for him watching Willy, and by doing this it also covered that he was supposed to be watching Harry. Ie. no one would realize he was there to protect Harry. (I hope that made sense)caught up in the business.

- - - - - - - - - -
Steve Newton - Apr 23, 2005 7:09 pm (#200 of 528)
I thought that Willy had been injured somewhere. Can't remember where, though.

Doesn't Arthur, or somebody, say that he was injured by one of his exploding toilets?

[Julia H.]

Harry Potter and the Order of the Phoenix Book Read Along (Posts 201-250)


Mrs Brisbee - Apr 24, 2005 6:07 am (#201 of 528)
You are right Steve, Arthur recounts how Willy was caught because one of his toilets exploded on him. I think the chapter was "St. Mungo's" when everyone went to visit Arthur there.

I always found it strange that Sirius had not been furious with Dung over the events outside 4 Privet Drive. --Scoop

I've been mulling this over since you said it. I think Sirius must have given Mungdungus a piece of his mind sometime during the four days before Harry comes. Sirius strikes me as the kind of guy who will forgive his friends almost anything (barring betrayal), and his enemies nothing. Mungdungus was quick to try to vote with Sirius when he was woken up right before dinner in "The Order of the Phoenix" (makes me wonder what he thought they were voting on. hmm). He offered Harry an apology. So he exhibited both solidarity and contriteness to those he had wronged. I think Sirius was more ticked off with Dumbledore and the Order about how Harry was being handled in general.

- - - - - - - - - -
scoop2172000 - Apr 24, 2005 10:06 am (#202 of 528)
Good point, Mrs. Brisbee, about Sirius being ticked off at Dumbledore and the Order for keeping Harry in the dark. Sirius rebelled by bringing up the subject of Voldemort at the dinner table on Harry's first night at 12 Grimauld Place.

Getting back to the chapter we're discussing, I note that Hermione jinxed the DA membership list before Educational Decree Twentyfour came out. I wonder whether she subsequently became anxious about that. Look what subsequently happened: Marietta's face broke out, and this re-inforced Umbridge's suspicions that someone was up to something.

- - - - - - - - - -
Steve Newton - Apr 25, 2005 7:44 am (#203 of 528)
Chapter 18-Dumbledore's Army

All magical teaching, including Harry's, seems to be 'just do it.'

Never turn your back on the twins.

Luna seems to pay close attention to everything Harry does. (Under the mistletoe, comment on the train about the previous years ball.)

The Hufflepuff common room is in the basement (dungeon) near the kitchens. Ravenclaw is in the West Tower. Gryffindor in on the 7th floor.

I wonder if there is any hidden meaning to Hufflepuff and Slytherin being underground and Gryffindor and Ravenclaw being in towers.

- - - - - - - - - -
scoop2172000 - Apr 25, 2005 7:55 am (#204 of 528)
Assorted observations on Steve's summary of Chapter 18:

Books can take you only so far is a subject, to paraphrase Trelawney. A witch or wizard needs to have the talent to actually perform spells -- and needs to practice. An analogy I can draw is a musician: he or she needs more than just the ability to read music. He or she needs to practice. And just as musicians are suited to particular instruments, so too are witches/wizards suited to specific areas of magic. We know that Harry has strong aptitude for Defense Against the Dark Arts.

Luna seems to pay close attention to what everyone does. She was able to recall who it was that Ron took as a date to the Yule Ball and the fact that his date didn't have a good time. Perhaps this heightened sense of observation comes from being raised by a journalist. Fortunately, Luna is not the gossip that Bertha Jorkins was.

Ravens can fly, and the mythical creature Griffin also has wings. Maybe this is why Ravenclaw and Gryffindor have dorms in towers.

- - - - - - - - - -
Steve Newton - Apr 25, 2005 8:05 am (#205 of 528)
Ravens can fly, and the mythical creature Griffin also has wings. Maybe this is why Ravenclaw and Gryffindor have dorms in towers.

Good observation Scoop. The sort of thing that seems so obvious when you know the answer.

- - - - - - - - - -
Mrs Brisbee - Apr 25, 2005 12:06 pm (#206 of 528)
Observations on Ch18, "Dumbledore's Army"

In the Quidditch changing room Harry's scar hurts, and he is able to relax his mind afterwards, recall a confusion of shapes and sound, and figure out that Voldemort is angry because something isn't happening fast enough. If Harry could learn to control the connection he would have the ability to spy on Voldemort. But Harry still wont go to Dumbledore and tell him how acute the connection has become.

In Umbridge's office when Harry felt Voldy's happy feeling, was that because Sturgis Podmore had just been sentenced to Azkaban? Or did something else happen then that I missed?

The night before Harry returned to Hogwarts, Voldy was furious because Sturgis Podmore had been caught while trying to get through the door to the DoM, right?

The house elves find Hermione's hidden elf clothes to be offensive, and wont clean Gryffindor tower any more. So much for her plan to free elves. They're not free, they are offended, and they have gained no trust for her.

Hey, Harry acts cautiously for once! He doesn't rush out in the middle of the night with Dobby to see the Room of Requirement. There is hope for him yet.

Hermione distrusts both Sirius's and Dobby's input (with good reason). She relaxes when she thinks Harry heard about the Room of Requirement from Dumbledore.

In the Room of Requirement, where do all the books and other things come from? Are they borrowed from around the castle, or are they copies of things that have been in the castle? Is the Foe Glass real, and just whose shadowy enemies are reflected in it?

And at long last, for the first time in the series we see a leader chosen. Kids don't get to pick their parents or guardians. We haven't been shown how any of the other leaders are picked. We don't know how the Minister of Magic is chosen, how Prefects or the Head Girl or Boy is appointed, or even how Quidditch captains are picked. Hermione interrupts the meeting to insist that they vote on who the leader will be. BRILLIANT. Hermione: "It makes it formal and gives him authority." This is probably the first time most of them have gotten to choose their own leader.

Harry is voted in as leader unanimously. This means that Marietta voted for Harry along with everybody else.

Hermione interrupts the meeting again, this time so they can name her baby. "Dumbledore's Army" passes with a majority, not unanimously. Most of the D.A. thought the name amusing, but I have to wonder if Marietta reckoned on joining an organization calling itself Dumbledore's Army.

- - - - - - - - - -
Steve Newton - Apr 25, 2005 1:05 pm (#207 of 528)
Mrs Brisbee, I think that your observation about choosing a leader is a good one. Also the point that Marietta must have agreed since it was unanimous. I wish that I had remembered this during the Marietta wars.

- - - - - - - - - -
Mrs Brisbee - Apr 25, 2005 1:43 pm (#208 of 528)
Ah, the Marietta Wars. How I miss them, standing amidst the open field while bombs from both sides sailed overhead, and explosions rocked earth and air, and the screams of the maimed and dying filled our ears... Those were the days (Actually, I found those discussions to be both fun and interesting. Oh well.)

- - - - - - - - - -
Steve Newton - Apr 25, 2005 3:50 pm (#209 of 528)
My son and I have been laughing for quite a while now, Mrs Brisbee.

- - - - - - - - - -
zelmia - Apr 25, 2005 8:24 pm (#210 of 528)
I though Voldemort was happy because the Azkaban 7 (or whatever it was) had escaped.

- - - - - - - - - -
Mrs Brisbee - Apr 26, 2005 6:41 am (#211 of 528)
No, that was later, in January. This was during Harry's "Detention With Dolores" in September. It's probably not something terribly significant to the story, but I was just curious about what Voldemort was so happy about. The only thing reported in the paper was Sturgis Podmore's sentencing. Or maybe that was the day they managed to get Bode under the Imperius Curse. Does anyone know when Bode ended up in St. Mungo's?

- - - - - - - - - -
scoop2172000 - Apr 26, 2005 10:42 am (#212 of 528)
Follow-up to an earlier post:

Ravens and Griffins have wings, and perhaps this is why the house dorms for Ravenclaw and Gryffindor are in towers. Well, snakes and badgers live underground, and perhaps this explains why the Hufflepuff and Slytherin dorms are in the dungeons.

Too, this has probably been covered sometime in the past, but I wonder whether all four of the Hogwarts founders were animagi, and that the surnames three of them took -- or were given -- related to the forms they took as animals.

I think most folks would agree that Slytherin could transform into a snake. I can picture Rowena Ravenclaw as a raven and Gryffindor as a griffin.

Obviously, Helga Hufflepuff is an exception to the above theory of name origins. Maybe she started out as Badger and later got married, taking her spouse's surname.

- - - - - - - - - -
pottermom34 - Apr 26, 2005 3:35 pm (#213 of 528)
this is a reply to Steve's # 205 good observation about ravens and gryfins, just to add, snakes and badgers(hufflepuff) are ground dwellers and live underground or under rocks and in caves.


EDIT: Sorry scoop2172000, jumped the gun on my reply before I saw yours.

- - - - - - - - - -
Steve Newton - Apr 26, 2005 3:52 pm (#214 of 528)
I was just quoting somebody else. I, unfortunately, said who it was after I put the quotation.

- - - - - - - - - -
Mrs Brisbee - Apr 26, 2005 4:47 pm (#215 of 528)
Obviously, Helga Hufflepuff is an exception to the above theory of name origins. Maybe she started out as Badger and later got married, taking her spouse's surname. --Scoop

For reasons that escape me, I always thought "Hufflepuff" was some reference to a badger's fur, since they are remarkable for their pelts. Maybe it's the word "puff" that got me thinking that. I just tried some dictionary searches, but the best match I could find was the Scottish "huffle-buffs", which dates from 1825 and means "old clothes".

- - - - - - - - - -
zelmia - Apr 26, 2005 9:32 pm (#216 of 528)
Badgers are quite fierce when disturbed. The sound they make is not unlike a Tasmanian Devil, which "huffs" and "puffs" to frighten away potential predators or rivals. Hence "Hufflepuff".

They are also quite diligent little diggers, and can create a splendid home for themselves in much the same way the Beaver can reshape its watery environment. Perhaps "Hufflepuff" (or Soufflepouf) is a reference to their hard working nature. After all, the Hufflepuffs are "not afraid of toil".

- - - - - - - - - -
Steve Newton - Apr 27, 2005 8:31 am (#217 of 528)
Chapter 19-The Lion and the Serpent

Parvati does the most powerful spell mentioned.

"Oh," said Hermione, trying to look modest. Great line.

"Weasley is our King" has seemed out of place from the first time that I read it. The head of the Weasley family is Arthur. Uh oh! I do think that this will become very important before the end of the books, especially since Arthur will not be the next Minister of Magic. Later other houses sing the song.

Montague is bigger than Crabbe and Goyle! Later the twins handle him without obvious difficulty. Don't mess with the twins! Or any Weasley for that matter. Remember they think that Ginny is powerful.

Harry keeps the Snitch. I don't recall it being mentioned again, though.

- - - - - - - - - -
Ticker - Apr 27, 2005 10:04 am (#218 of 528)
I think most folks would agree that Slytherin could transform into a snake. I can picture Rowena Ravenclaw as a raven and Gryffindor as a griffin. -scoop2172000

I thought animagi limited their transformations into non-mythical beasts. Maybe Griffindor changed into a lion.

Regarding the twins strength - It took the 3 quidditch team gals to hold Fred back. Harry held George back by himself - well, for a while anyway, until he longer wanted to.

- - - - - - - - - -
Ticker - Apr 27, 2005 10:57 am (#219 of 528)
Also - wierd that Harry wants Ron to eat when he himself is never much for eating when nervous. Sigh - what would that be like, I wonder?

- - - - - - - - - -
Steve Newton - Apr 27, 2005 11:03 am (#220 of 528)
Ticker, remember that this is fantasy.

- - - - - - - - - -
scoop2172000 - Apr 27, 2005 11:12 am (#221 of 528)
Harry making Ron eat breakfast before the match reminded me of Oliver Wood telling his teammates to eat and also making them observe a pre-match bedtime.

I think it's very sweet that Harry, remembering how nervous he'd been before some past matches, tries to lessen Ron's jitters.

I think it odd that the Slytherins verbally attack only one Weasley: Ron. They don't go after the twins, and we later see no evidence of them teasing Ginny when she plays Seeker. Perhaps many of the Slytherins instinctively know that taking on Fred and George is a bad idea. They probably discount Ginny as not being worth the effort. (Oh how wrong they are in underestimating Ginny, well-versed in the Bat Bogey Hex.)

Though I don't condone violence, I couldn't help but laugh out loud when Malfoy got what was coming to him. You go, Harry!

- - - - - - - - - -
Choices - Apr 27, 2005 11:57 am (#222 of 528)
They probably attack Ron in particular because he is closest to Harry and it is a way for Malfoy/Slytherins to attack Harry by picking on Harry's best friend. By hurting Ron, they also hurt Harry, who is their main target.

- - - - - - - - - -
Steve Newton - Apr 27, 2005 1:01 pm (#223 of 528)
Colin also seems to be coming along pretty well in the DA.

- - - - - - - - - -
Mrs Brisbee - Apr 27, 2005 1:06 pm (#224 of 528)
I think it's very sweet that Harry, remembering how nervous he'd been before some past matches, tries to lessen Ron's jitters. --Scoop

I liked this too. Harry has been very self absorbed for much of the book. His empathy for Ron takes over here, and he puts Ron's feelings first.

Parvati does the most powerful spell mentioned. --Steve Newton

I think she'll definately be in the 6th year DADA class. Probably all the 5th year DA members will go on to take advanced DADA. Perhaps the mention of her power means she'll play a significant role in some future battle.

- - - - - - - - - -
Steve Newton - Apr 27, 2005 6:41 pm (#225 of 528)
I agree on Parvati. In OOTP she seems to be one of the more important background characters. Lavender, her fellow Airhead Brigade member, does not get the same treatment.

- - - - - - - - - -
Mrs Brisbee - Apr 27, 2005 6:55 pm (#226 of 528)
The Protean Charm offers a way to communicate across distance that appears to be near instantaneous, although the information being transmitted is very simple. I wonder how complex a message could be sent?

Hermione was considered for Ravenclaw by the Sorting Hat. She also has a lot of "Hufflepuff qualities", for example she is a very hard worker, and she tries to be fair. She also has a great thirst to prove herself (often touted as a Slytheriny trait), as well as being resourceful and determined (Slytherin traits named by Dumbledore), and occasionally she is sneaky. The Sorting Hat also took a long time deciding where to place other students, like Seamus and Neville. Having traits that suit someone to more than one House must be pretty common. Characters like Ron and Draco could see only one acceptable House choice, and they both were placed fairly quickly. I'd love to see the students sit down and compare their "might-have-been" Houses in some future book.

- - - - - - - - - -
scoop2172000 - Apr 28, 2005 7:24 am (#227 of 528)
I think Hermione is as well-suited for Ravenclaw as she is for Gryffindor. I wonder how the Ravenclaws in her year feel about the fact that academically, she's first in the entire class. I'm sure Ravenclaw house is all-too used to having the brightest academic stars.

I find it interesting that in the case of the Patil twins, we find one (Pavarti) in Gryffindor while her identical twin sister, Padma, is in Ravenclaw. Could it be that no matter how smart a witch/wizard is, the Sorting Hat picks only the bravest of the brave for Gryffindor? That perhaps the Patil twins are equally smart, but Pavarti has a bravery far surpassing that of her sister?

The fact that Pavarti masters the difficult spells Harry is teaching is yet another indicator she's smart.

I wonder why Pavarti hangs around with Lavender (LOVED the "Airhead Brigade", Steve). Pavarti is intelligent. You'd think she'd hang out with Hermione. Maybe there's a rivalry there. Or, perhaps Pavarti and Lavender have the popularity skills that Hermione lacks, because Hermione is somewhat of a geek. (Scoop ducks dungbombs.)

- - - - - - - - - -
Steve Newton - Apr 28, 2005 7:29 am (#228 of 528)
"You'd think she'd hang out with Hermione. Maybe there's a rivalry there."

Dangerously close to 'shipping.

Wow, I wish that I knew how to do smileys.

- - - - - - - - - -
Mrs Brisbee - Apr 28, 2005 10:55 am (#229 of 528)
I think Hermione values bravery over brains, and that's why she is in Gryffindor. The Sorting hat does seem to at least consider the children's opinion about what House they might want, or not want, to be in, as well as what attributes they possess. It would be possible for the bravest student to crop up in Hufflepuff, for example, if they valued fairness and hard work above all else. That's my take on it anyway. It's possible with Padma and Pavarti that they do have different attributes (Pavarti being the braver one), or that they wanted to nurture different attributes. Pavarti was sorted second, so I wonder if she wanted some independence?

As for being friends with Lavender, well, they do seem to like the same stuff and connect on the same giggly wavelength. And it is possible that Lavender is good at some subjects, even if she is unremarkable at DADA.

- - - - - - - - - -
scoop2172000 - Apr 29, 2005 6:24 am (#230 of 528)
"Dangerously close to 'shipping," Steve. Not!

I view the rivalry between Hermione and Pavarti to be academic, not personal (personal being defined as vying for Harry's affections.)

Pavarti's twin is in Ravenclaw, a house know for intelligence. Yet Pavarti didn't make Ravenclaw. Maybe Pavarti could have started out by comforting herself that in Gryffindor, she'd get the best grades. Not so. Hermione beats everyone out, and Hermione garners the teachers' praise (except for Snape, of course.)

Canon tells us Hermione is the top student in her year. I'd be willing to bet the Patil twins jockey for second place and strive to beat Hermione. That's the sort of rivalry I perceived.

To tie my theory to the chapter under discussion: it appears Pavarti comes close to equalling Hermione in mastering some of the skills Harry teaches the Defense Association.

- - - - - - - - - -
Mrs Brisbee - Apr 29, 2005 7:37 am (#231 of 528)
Padma is also a Ravenclaw Prefect, but Pavarti lost out on that position to Hermione.

- - - - - - - - - -
Steve Newton - Apr 29, 2005 11:36 am (#232 of 528)
Until Parvati started getting attention in OOTP I had mostly discounted her. She now seems to be among the best magically and in GOF she, and her sister, are called the best looking girls in the year. A tough combination. And Harry and Ron went with them to the Yule Ball and demonstrated how not to date. I'm guessing that Padma is also very good at magic.

- - - - - - - - - -
scoop2172000 - Apr 29, 2005 12:23 pm (#233 of 528)
Steve, I agree with you that Padma probably is very good at magic too. I think the reason we hear more about Pavarti is that she is in Harry's house. The stories are told from Harry's point of view.

- - - - - - - - - -
Steve Newton - Apr 29, 2005 1:01 pm (#234 of 528)
Chapter 20-Hagrid's Tale

Dragon meat, and blood, is green.

The trip to see the giants surprised me. So much for my perceptions.

Who followed Hagrid?

"overload 'em with information an' they'll kill yeh jus' to simplify things." Sometimes I feel like that.

"Yes, as gamekeeper fresh air must be so difficult to come by." Umbridge gets in a zinger.

More decapitation with Karkas.

I figure that with the upcoming Grawp chapter this book has 2 chapters largely concerning giants. They must be very important.

- - - - - - - - - -
Mrs Brisbee - Apr 29, 2005 2:25 pm (#235 of 528)
I wondered who the poor Ministry sap who had to follow Hagrid was too. Must of had an interesting trip. I wonder if the MoM okayed their operation with the French wizarding government?

Hagrid's secret trip to see the giants wasn't very secret. The trio knew about it, Draco Malfoy knew about it (undoubtably from his father), and Dolores Umbridge knew about it (probably from the ministry).

Madame Maxime was able to single handedly rescue Hagrid from being murdered, but probably did no lasting harm to the giants in the process. Wonder what's necessary to take one out.

This isn't one of my favorite chapters, simply because I've never enjoyed characters narrating a story within a story as a literary device. Still, I agree that it is a gold mine of important information about giants that will be handy in the next books.

- - - - - - - - - -
scoop2172000 - Apr 30, 2005 6:21 am (#236 of 528)
I don't think Umbridge or the Ministry knew about Hagrid's trip to see the giants. Umbridge asked Professor Grubbly-Plank whether she knew the reason(s)why Hagrid wasn't teaching. Too, Umbridge indicated Dumbledore wasn't forthcoming on the subject.

From the get-go, Umbridge opposed the idea of Hagrid teaching, because he's a part-human. If she knew Hagrid had been visiting the giants, she would have quickly used that information to get him canned. Too, Fudge would have taken the visits as evidence of his paranoid beliefs Dumbledore was plotting against him. Remember how angrily he reacted, at the end of Goblet of Fire, to Dumbledore's idea of sending emissaries to the giants.

It's clear the Death Eaters knew about Hagrid's visits. It may be that one or more Death Eaters tailed Hagrid from the start. Or, it may be that Death Eaters on their own emissary mission spotted Hagrid and Madame Maxine. Hagrid and Maxine are easy to spot.

- - - - - - - - - -
Mrs Brisbee - Apr 30, 2005 7:08 am (#237 of 528)
Maybe I should have used the word "suspected" instead of "knew". Umbridge did ask Hagrid if he went to the mountains, so she suspected the nature of his trip, even if she didn't know for sure or have any evidence to back it up.

- - - - - - - - - -
pottermom34 - Apr 30, 2005 8:59 pm (#238 of 528)
I wonder where, other than Willy, Umby gets her information. I think they (dolores and the mom) know more than they let on. If she didn't know at least something she wouldn't have specifically asked about mountains. Or maybe her spy said he/she heard mountains mentioned and Umby just said it to see if Hagrid would respond.

- - - - - - - - - -
scoop2172000 - May 1, 2005 11:02 am (#239 of 528)
Maybe Umbridge was making a wild guess about the mountains purely on the basis that Hagrid is part-giant. Perhaps most giants live in the mountains. Certainly, giants would be less conspicuous the mountains than in the lowlands.

If the Ministry had been tailing Hagrid, someone associated with it would have observed Hagrid dragging Grawp back with him and stashing him in the Forbidden Forest.

I still think the Ministry doesn't know anything about Hagrid's trip abroad and that the only reason the Death Eaters do know is because one or more of them was lurking near the giant settlement when Hagrid and Madame Maxine showed up.

- - - - - - - - - -
pottermom34 - May 1, 2005 4:55 pm (#240 of 528)
Maybe they just know he went that direction but don't know the details of the trip. Maybe they found out through whoever the DE's were that were there.

- - - - - - - - - -
Steve Newton - May 2, 2005 8:09 am (#241 of 528)
Chapter 21-The Eye of the Snake

One of the best chapters in the series.

"An interesting class was not one where there was a risk that somebody might have their head ripped off." Words to live by.

Thestrals prefer dark.

Those who can see thestrals-Hagrid, Harry, stringy Slytherin boy (Nott, Zabini?), Neville, Luna.

"Have a very Harry Christmas" suggests a theme which we cannot discuss.

Hermione asks if Cho cornered him.. Cho ends up with Michael Corner. Probably nothing.

"Are you that bad at kissing?" One of the better lines in the books.

Should we trust Hermione's description of Cho's feelings?

I must be dense, but, why did Ron have an unusually shrewd expression while looking at Harry?

Neville is the first to take action.

Seamus and Dean (and Neville) must be amazed at what happened to Harry, but, it seems that they don't spread the word later. An exceptional occurrence at Hogwarts.

- - - - - - - - - -
pottermom34 - May 2, 2005 9:54 am (#242 of 528)
I agree Steve it is one of the best chapters of the series.

- - - - - - - - - -
Mrs Brisbee - May 2, 2005 12:05 pm (#243 of 528)
Maybe they found out through whoever the DE's were that were there. --Pottermom

I think you are right there. Macnair, who works for the Committee for the Disposal of Dangerous Animals, was one of the DEs who visited the giants. Of course he couldn't say he had been to see giants himself, so the best he could do would be place them in the general vicinity to feed Fudge's paranoia that Dumbledore was trying to raise an army against him.

Anyway, on to "The Eye of the Snake", which I also agree is one of the best chapters.

Neville is the first to take action. --Steve Newton

Thus showing a good deal of good sense. Poor Ron. His best friend has been insisting all term that he won't go to Dumbledore about his heightened connection to Voldemort, but now tells him he has just had a vision of Ron's father being grievously wounded.

Should we trust Hermione's description of Cho's feelings?

Sure, why not? Interesting that Hermione knows so much about Cho and her feelings, though.

I'll post more later. The child wants my attention now.

- - - - - - - - - -
scoop2172000 - May 2, 2005 2:19 pm (#244 of 528)
I, too, agree that this chapter is extremely well-written and is one of the best. I especially like the manner in which JKR has Ron and Hermione react to Harry's having kissed Cho.

Ron's sniggering shows how very immature he still is regarding romance. Is it any wonder he annoys Hermione?

Hermione, with her attitude and insight, shows how much more mature she is than both boys.

In general, girls tend to mature faster than boys. Too, keep in mind that Hermione is older than both boys: she's approximately six months older than Ron and nearly a year older than Harry.

More thoughts to follow tomorrow ....

- - - - - - - - - -
Mrs Brisbee - May 2, 2005 6:53 pm (#245 of 528)
Of course, Hermione did spend a few month Petrified by the basilisk in CoS, though I have no idea how that effects the physical aging process. But, yes, she is just more mature than the boys.

Cho stays after the last DA class so she can talk to Harry, but instantly starts crying about Cedric. She wonders if Cedric might still be alive if had learned all the things she is learning in the DA. Harry assures her that Cedric knew all this and was good at it, it just doesn't make any difference if Voldemort wants you dead. That's rather a depressing view, but I guess it sums up how Harry feels at this point. Voldemort has wanted him dead his entire life. Cho then mentions that Harry is The Boy Who Lived:

"You survived when you were just a baby," she said quietly.

"Yeah, well," said Harry wearily, moving toward the door, "I dunno why, nor does anyone else, so it's nothing to be proud of."

I think Cho could see some hope it that, that someone had actually survived an encounter with Voldemort. But Harry lives a dichotomous life. He is The Boy Who Lived, and then he is just Harry. He is really sick of his alter ego, and what good is it if he can't figure out why he survived and has this mysterious connection to Voldemort.

Cho hiccups when Harry mentions Voldy's name, but doesn't flinch. She says she could never Stun anything before joining the DA, which points to DADA not being her strong point before Cedric was murdered. She seems to be taking her commitment to learn to fight Voldemort very seriously.

- - - - - - - - - -
Ticker - May 3, 2005 12:14 pm (#246 of 528)
Edited by May 3, 2005 12:14 pm
Just a quick response in Ch 20:

If the Ministry had been tailing Hagrid, someone associated with it would have observed Hagrid dragging Grawp back with him and stashing him in the Forbidden Forest. - scoop

Doesn't Hagrid indicate they lost their tail? It's possible that he was wrong or that they were followed again later without knowing it, but at least in the mountains, he & M Maxime were quite competent in keeping track of giants (of all opinions) & Death Eaters & avoiding being approached. Maybe it was MacNair who was following them. Eeee gads.

Ch 21 - Great chapter! Good insights everyone. I'm kicking myself for leaving my book by a sleeping baby so I have to wait to look up Ron's "unusually shrewd expression while looking at Harry" - Steve.

Why hasn't Harry done any thinking/research about what DD said about his survival being due to his mothers love? Grrrrr... probably because he's young, under other stress & simply because he's not Hermione. It gets touched on a bit again in the end of the book & I suspect it will become continually more important in books 6 & 7.

- - - - - - - - - -
scoop2172000 - May 3, 2005 1:47 pm (#247 of 528)
(Cho)says she could never Stun anything before joining the DA, which points to DADA not being her strong point ...

We know Cho is smart, because she's a Ravenclaw. But book knowledge and practical skill are two different things. For example, Hermione, who is the top student in the year, lags behind Harry in DADA.

I think Cho's limited success with DADA is going to be important in HBP and book 7 (if she lives that long.) I've floated the theory before that Cho, whom Harry will always remember as the first girl he kissed, will be one of the deaths JKR has been warning us about.

In this chapter, Jo hints that Cho, though a good student, is not a natural at DADA. And why did Jo remind us that Cedric died even though he was skilled in defensive magic?

- - - - - - - - - -
Steve Newton - May 3, 2005 2:04 pm (#248 of 528)
I don't think that Cho had limited success in the DA. She is one of the few to produce a patronus (swan) and can do stunning spells now. It sounds as if she is, at least, competent at DADA.

- - - - - - - - - -
Choices - May 3, 2005 5:53 pm (#249 of 528)
Scoop - "And why did Jo remind us that Cedric died even though he was skilled in defensive magic?"

Don't you think that JKR just wanted us to know that when Voldemort decides to kill you, even knowing defensive magic may not be enough to save you. Cedric didn't die because he was incompetent - many excellent wizards have fallen at the hands of Voldemort and his henchmen. The blame for his own death can not be placed on Cedric.

- - - - - - - - - -
Mrs Brisbee - May 3, 2005 6:43 pm (#250 of 528)
We know Cho is smart, because she's a Ravenclaw. But book knowledge and practical skill are two different things. --Scoop

I don't think that Cho had limited success in the DA. She is one of the few to produce a Patronus (swan) and can do stunning spells now. --Steve Newton

I kind of agree with you both. Cho has come a long way, and is one of the few in the DA to produce a Patronus. Her goal is not just to become good at DADA, but to be able to fight Voldemort. But like most of the DA, she is untested in battle. Luna wasn't exactly a stellar student from the description of her spell work during the first DA meeting, and I don't think her ability is remarked upon thereafter, so it probably remained mediocre at best. Yet she does fine later in the DoM battle. I think it is difficult to know how someone's ability will transfer from classroom to real life until it happens, but still it must help to have mastered the skills you'll need to use. Since Cho wants to fight Voldemort, if there was some sort of attack in her vicinity I think she would rush to the fray. Anyone, no matter how skilled or how incompetent, has a chance of dying in battle. I do hope she doesn't end up being dead former girlfriend, though.

Why hasn't Harry done any thinking/research about what DD said about his survival being due to his mothers love? Grrrrr... --Ticker

Heh heh. Not that any of our heads threaten to explode when we try to figure out what it means... Harry is a world champion procrastinator. If he doesn't want to think about something, for whatever reason (too painful to think about, interferes with Quidditch practice, etc.,) he just sets it aside and literally doesn't think about it.

I also don't think the explanation of his mother's sacrifice can be found in any of the books in the non-restricted section of the library. Maybe the restricted section will offer more information on ancient magicks.

[Julia H.]

Harry Potter and the Order of the Phoenix Book Read Along (Posts 251-300)


Ticker - May 4, 2005 2:16 am (#251 of 528)
Wish I had access to that library.

- - - - - - - - - -
pottermom34 - May 4, 2005 5:59 am (#252 of 528)
I like how Hermione skipped skiing and showed up to give Harry a verbal "slap" in the face to bring him back to reality, and how Ginny helped.

- - - - - - - - - -
Steve Newton - May 4, 2005 6:21 am (#253 of 528)
Edited May 4, 2005 7:36 am
Chapter 22-St. Mungo's Hospital for Magical Maladies and Injuries

Everhard thinks pretty good for a portrait.

The Department of Mysteries does not allow portraits. With good reason, I think.

Who is Elfrid Cragg? Haven't we seen the name before?

Port key magic is blue.

Can the gimlet eyed witch in the painting, she threatens Phineas with her wand, really do magic? What are gimlet eyes?

The flash of flame feather from Fawkes (The FFFFF) raises all kinds of questions about moving around Hogwarts. What happens to the feather?

Sirius has been drinking. Other known drinkers, Hagrid, Winky, Mundungus.

Kreacher eavesdrops when Harry tells his story.

Ron seems to be aware that Harry changed his story slightly.

"Leaving Harry standing alone in the dark." A strong image, I think.

Tonks gently performs her auror duties while questioning Harry.

3rd floor is "Potion and Plant Poisoning." Uncontrollable giggling is one of the symptoms listed. This sounds like what happens to Ron later. But he was hit by a spell, I think.

There is a mention of unliftable jinxes. Is the a warning about Marietta?

Is the very old wizard Nott, Sr.?

I still don't understand the Voldemort/snake realtionship.

- - - - - - - - - -
scoop2172000 - May 4, 2005 7:58 am (#254 of 528)
Good catch, Steve, that Tonks' was doing Auror duties when she questioned Harry, however gentle.

I think they will find a way to lift the jinx on Marietta. I don't think Hermione would go so far as to scar someone permanently. I expect Marietta will end up being admitted to St. Mungos after out-patient attempts to cure her will fail.

I've said that Hermione isn't as skilled as Harry in DADA, but I want to add now that Hermione appears to have quite an aptitude for some forms of practical magic. She can do a Proteus Charm, and she cooked up one heck of a jinx regarding the DA membership list. I can't help but think back to SS/PS when she was the first in Flitwick's class to master Wingardium Leviosa and how she's done well in Transfiguration.

Voldemort/snake relation: Voldemort has the ability to posses animals (as well as people). Plus, being a Parsel Tongue, he can talk to snakes. So, when he wants to possess an animal rather than a person, his preferred beast is a snake.

- - - - - - - - - -
Mrs Brisbee - May 4, 2005 1:34 pm (#255 of 528)
Can the gimlet eyed witch in the painting, she threatens Phineas with her wand, really do magic? What are gimlet eyes? --Steve Newton

A gimlet is a tool for piercing holes in things. Gimlet eyes are penetrating eyes. The witch's wand is described as being rod-like. I think her intent is to march on over to Phineas's canvas and give him a good nonmagical smack with it. By his quick response to her threat, I'd say she's done just that before.

I still don't understand the Voldemort/snake relationship. --Steve Newton

You and me both, Steve. It goes far beyond him being a Parselmouth and being able to possess snakes. Voldemort seems very snake-like both in his physical apearance and his soul. Something to do with his experiments to achieve immortality? Something he found in the Chamber of Secrets? I really don't have a good explanation.

Speaking of snakes...Dumbledore's silver instrument omits green smoke that forms into a snake. How very Slytheriny. I wonder if it is something that can track the heir of Slytherin. Again, I don't have any good ideas to explain this. Oh well.

- - - - - - - - - -
Steve Newton - May 4, 2005 2:04 pm (#256 of 528)
Mrs. B., thanks for the gimlet information. I guess I should have looked it up, I'm a librarian after all.

I also like the whacking idea for the wand.

- - - - - - - - - -
Ponine - May 5, 2005 5:00 am (#257 of 528)
Did anyone notice the old man who was there to visit Bode? Do we think he has any significance?

And it struck me too, that Ron knew Harry was slighlt modifying hos account - what is Ron thinking about that, I wonder, particularly after overhearing the whispered conversation at the hospital about Harry being possessed..? I think it shows a great strength of character to continuously be as supportive as Ron is in this period.

- - - - - - - - - -
Steve Newton - May 5, 2005 6:06 am (#258 of 528)
I think that the old man might be Nott, Sr. But in the battle later Harry does not seem to recognize him. Of course the DEs were wearing hoods. Don't know.

- - - - - - - - - -
Madame Pomfrey - May 5, 2005 10:26 am (#259 of 528)
The"Stooped"figure with the hearing trumpet does sound like Nott at least he was described as stooped(so has Mr.Borgin) in the graveyard scene.I'm wondering if he transfigured Devils snare into an ear trumpet so he could sneak it in to Bode.

- - - - - - - - - -
Mrs Brisbee - May 5, 2005 11:58 am (#260 of 528)
I'd never considered the possibility that it might be Nott, but now that you mention it, that could be. Mrs. Weasley, Moody, and Tonks didn't recognize him though. Wouldn't members of the Order have studied photos of known Death Eaters so they might recognize them?

"Leaving Harry standing alone in the dark." A strong image, I think. --Steve Newton

I agree. Sirius, in marked contrast to the way he acted during the summer, seems to have gone over all Order of the Phoenixish. For the moment the Order and Dumbledore's instructions get top priority. When the kids arrived and wanted to rush off immediately to St. Mungo's, Sirius tries to dissuade them with his spiel about how some things are worth dying for, and Arthur knew what he was getting into, and he wouldn't want his children to cause problems for the Order even if he's lying close to death. Perhaps it is Arthur's having been wounded in service to the Order that causes this major shift in Sirius's thinking.

It was Ginny who first heeded Sirius's arguments, leading the others to sit and wait for word from her mother rather than rush off to the hospital. She shows her respect for her father and an understanding of the importance of his work for the Order by doing this.

- - - - - - - - - -
Steve Newton - May 5, 2005 12:07 pm (#261 of 528)
Good catch on Ginny. She is growing and this shows a hint of leadership.

- - - - - - - - - -
Mrs Brisbee - May 6, 2005 6:33 am (#262 of 528)
I like how Hermione skipped skiing and showed up to give Harry a verbal "slap" in the face to bring him back to reality, and how Ginny helped. --Pottermom

Okay, I've finally read that far (I'm lagging way behind on note-taking because of eye problems), and I agree. Hermione seems to be the only one with the gumption to approach Bad Mood Harry and yank him back to reality. I wonder why Ron is so reluctant to confront Harry? Is it because of their argument in GoF, and now Ron is afraid to get in another situation where he and Harry aren't talking, because he realizes that there is a good chance Harry will be murdered?

- - - - - - - - - -
Steve Newton - May 6, 2005 9:15 am (#263 of 528)
Chapter 23-Christmas on the Closed Ward

"I'm the weapon." I think that this is true, but for the good guys. As Dumbledore explains later, he was afraid of Voldemort controlling Harry not because it had a chance of hurting Dumbledore but because it may cause Harry to be killed.

Tonks gives Harry a toy.

Will Dobby's painting work like other portraits?

"Brutal looking healers."

Hermione has the floor wrong!

Did the person bringing Bode the plant let Lockhart out?

The healer speaks of remedial potions. Harry goes for "Remedial Potions" lessons with Snape, later. I'm sure its just a coincidence.

- - - - - - - - - -
scoop2172000 - May 7, 2005 6:51 am (#264 of 528)
I've always wondered about the Harry portrait Dobby has done. I think JKR has dropped the first hint of what will prove to be an important story line in HPB and/or book seven: that we'll finally find out how portraits actually work.

I found it interesting, too, that the Harry portrait is unrecognizableto the casual observer. Might help make it a stealth item.

There's more than one definition of "remedial." The term means one thing at the hospital, where remedial equals treatment, and it means another in the context of remedial lessons, the latter being a sort of tutoring.

- - - - - - - - - -
Miriam Huber - May 7, 2005 9:40 am (#265 of 528)
To Steve´s: Hermione has the floor wrong: In PoA, when Harry, Ron and Hermione go to Divination for the first time, it is also Hermione who has the direction wrong. I find it one of JKR´s amusing details that she depicts know-it-all, rational Hermione with a problem so many women (me included) have: spatial (or geographical or how do you call it) thinking.

- - - - - - - - - -
Choices - May 7, 2005 10:30 am (#266 of 528)
"Remedial" though in both cases means to make something get better - medically it's a treatment to help a person get better and academically the aim of remedial lessons is to help you get better in those subjects.

- - - - - - - - - -
Mrs Brisbee - May 7, 2005 10:46 am (#267 of 528)
"I'm the weapon." I think that this is true, but for the good guys. --Steve Newton

Yes, I agree. Rowling includes a lot of wonderful irony this book. I notice that when Harry decides he is the weapon and a danger, he doesn't seem to care that he would pose a threat to the Dursleys.

Dumbledore foresaw the likelihood of Harry running away, as Phineas Nigellus seems to have been lurking with DD's message "Stay where you are." I've got to agree with Harry that it wasn't a particularly enlightening message; Harry's rant about it was spot on.

Phineas Nigellus: "This is precisely why I loathed being a teacher." I admit to laughing at Phineas's snide remarks a lot of the time. Sometimes he even has a fair point. But why did he become a teacher and headmaster, when he so obviously dislikes kids?

Harry warns Sirius that Kreacher could very well have left the house. Sirius is startled by this idea, but apparently doesn't heed the warning and follow up on it. Big mistake.

About Hermione showing up for Christmas, it seems from what she said that she was intending NOT to go skiing with her parents at all, but intended to spend the holiday break at Hogwarts studying. She was irritated with Ron for laughing about skiing, so lied to them about going skiing. Since she rushed off to Grimmauld Place after term ended, it does seem she rates Harry and the Weasleys above studying, and her parents below.

To Steve´s: Hermione has the floor wrong: In PoA, when Harry, Ron and Hermione go to Divination for the first time, it is also Hermione who has the direction wrong. I find it one of JKR´s amusing details that she depicts know-it-all, rational Hermione with a problem so many women (me included) have: spatial (or geographical or how do you call it) thinking. --Miriam Huber

Maybe Rowling wants to remind us that Know-It-All Hermione, who often seems so insightful and possessed of all the right answers, can be wrong about things. I think that Rowling wants us to keep in mind that no one is perfect.

- - - - - - - - - -
Ticker - May 7, 2005 11:11 pm (#268 of 528)
Why didn't any members of the Order visit Bode? I would think they would be interested in following up on any odd occurances associated with Dept of Myteries people. Or if they did, why didn't they notice the plant?

- - - - - - - - - -
Mrs Brisbee - May 8, 2005 5:57 am (#269 of 528)
It does seem odd that no one noticed the plant, or that it didn't try to strangle some hospital worker in the weeks before it killed Bode. Perhaps at this point it really is some harmless plant, and it is switched for the devil's snare later?

- - - - - - - - - -
Steve Newton - May 8, 2005 4:31 pm (#270 of 528)
Chapter 24-Occlumency

Why didn't Sirius want Molly to know about the mirror?

"Hey-Cho." Sounds like a sneeze.

"No subtlety." Earlier Nick had said this of Peeves.

"The walls and grounds of Hogwarts are guarded by many ancient spells and charms." I try to keep track of the 'ancient' references.

All emotions seem to make you vulnerable.

Another bad librarian stereotype!

Headless Hats, another decapitation image.

Harry avoids the headless hats. Doesn't want someone to take his head? Fear of the imperius curse?

"The words came...as though a stranger was speaking then through Harry's mouth." mmmm. I seem to recall several references to Harry hearing a voice talking to him in his head.

- - - - - - - - - -
pottermom34 - May 9, 2005 6:32 am (#271 of 528)
Why didn't Sirius want Molly to know about the mirror?
He probably doesn't want her to worry about Harry getting caught talking to him, or that someone would figure out where he was.


"Hey-Cho"- bless you


hey I found something interesting I don't know if it's a typo or intentional but here goes:
Ch. 24, page 504(us) "they can leave the house if they really want to," Harry contradicted him. "Dobby did, he left the Malfoys' to give me warnings two years ago.He had to punish himself afterward, but he still managed it.
That didn't happen 2years ago it happened 3 years ago. Did anyone else catch that? Was it intentional or a typo?

- - - - - - - - - -
Steve Newton - May 9, 2005 8:47 am (#272 of 528)
I didn't catch it and your math seems to hold up. Of course, it isn't JKR's fault, its Harry who makes the mistake.

The mirror would seem to be a handy communication device, unless it is interceptible. The DA could use something like it.

- - - - - - - - - -
Ponine - May 9, 2005 9:30 am (#273 of 528)
Do we think the little girl laughing at young Snape struggling with a broom is someone we know??? (In Snape's worst memory)

- - - - - - - - - -
Choices - May 9, 2005 5:55 pm (#274 of 528)
I have read somewhere that it was possibly Snape and Florence who were kissing when Bertha Jorkins spied on them. Maybe Bertha was in some way fascinated with Snape and kept an eye on him - she could be the one who laughed at him on the broom. Nothing to back that up - just a supposition.

- - - - - - - - - -
pottermom34 - May 9, 2005 8:37 pm (#275 of 528)
I seem to be a bit behind,only a couple pages, I'll have to work on catching up then I'll jump in more.

- - - - - - - - - -
Mrs Brisbee - May 10, 2005 3:31 am (#276 of 528)
Why didn't Sirius want Molly to know about the mirror? --Steve Newton

My take on that was because the mirror is supposed to be a secret between himself and his godson. Molly usually backs up Dumbledore when there are disagreements, and Sirius especially wants to keep knowledge of the mirror away from Dumbledore. I think Sirius is feeling very irate about his godfather responsibilities being usurped by Dumbledore, and though Sirius often acts immature this isn't just idle churlishness on his part; he can see how much Harry really needs his support at this point.

I'm basing my assumption of Sirius's feelings on the after dinner argument in "The Order of the Phoenix" and on his and Snape's nasty exchange in "Occlumency."

"I was supposed to see you alone, Potter," said Snape, the familiar sneer curling his mouth, "But Black--"

"I'm his godfather," said Sirius, louder than ever.

"I am here on Dumbledore's orders," said Snape, whose voice, by contrast, was becoming more and more quietly waspish, "but by all means stay, Black, I know you like to feel...involved"

Also Sirius seems to have gotten a letter from Dumbledore --rather than a personal visit--informing him what's going to happen and why. Sirius is reduced to asking Snape why Dumbledore can't teach Harry personally.

Other things of note: The Knight Bus drops them off at Hogwart's gates. Tonk says the kids will be safe once they enter Hogwarts grounds, and the bus leaves before they get inside.

Snape: "...the walls and grounds of Hogwarts are guarded by many ancient spells and charms to ensure the bodily and mental safety of those who dwell within them..." Which explains why no one every gets killed playing Quidditch

Snape makes sure the first Occlumency lesson gets off to a bad start. He makes Harry extremely upset and angry before telling him to let go of all emotion.

The only repeated image is the hundred dementors gliding towards Harry by the lake.

- - - - - - - - - -
Steve Newton - May 10, 2005 5:59 am (#277 of 528)
Repeated images seem to be important. I guess that you are right about Molly and the mirror. I was hoping for something more dramatic. Maybe Molly is starting to get on people's nerves.

- - - - - - - - - -
Miriam Huber - May 10, 2005 9:14 am (#278 of 528)
Now that we are on Occlumency, I would really like to hear what you think (on re-re-re-reading) about these lessons.

What was Snape up to? Was it really normal that Harry´s mind seemed (to him, at least) rather to open than to close? Was Snape playing a double game? Or was it that he just couldn´t control the temptation to hurt Harry, therefore spoiling the lessons because Harry got angry? Was it all Harry´s fault, because he didn´t practice?

Well, I am wondering about these Occlumency lessons since months and can´t make up my mind. Looking forward to your suggestions!

- - - - - - - - - -
Steve Newton - May 10, 2005 9:49 am (#279 of 528)
Harry certainly didn't put much effort into practicing.

Snape's teaching of occlumency didn't seem to be very different than his teaching of potions. In fact the only good teaching methods, and I'm not sure how good, was when he was teaching about werewolves. He actually gave information.

So. I don't know what Snape was trying to do, good or bad, during the occlumency lessons. How's that for decisiveness?

- - - - - - - - - -
Choices - May 10, 2005 11:54 am (#280 of 528)
The mirrors are interesting. They seem so much like two kids playing with walkie-talkies, Sirius and Harry. So why did Sirius act like they were something so secretive? Maybe there is more to the mirrors than we have been told?

- - - - - - - - - -
Miriam Huber - May 10, 2005 3:03 pm (#281 of 528)
Well, perhaps that is too simple, but I thought Molly would just react as usual: "Sirius! That is dangerous! If somebody found the mirror and found out where you are with it, or heard Harry talk to it! And, anyway, if Harry is in trouble at school, he should go to Dumbledore! Don´t you interfere! We know you act rashly, and there ist Professor McGonagall, too, they all can give him advise, there is no need for such a dangerous object like these mirrors!" etc. It didn´t imply to me that there was something additional and hidden about the mirrors. Well, we´ll see, as we will see the mirror(s) again...

- - - - - - - - - -
haymoni - May 10, 2005 4:16 pm (#282 of 528)
I think it goes back to her comment that Harry isn't James.

Sirius wouldn't want her to see him giving Harry something that he and James shared.

- - - - - - - - - -
Mrs Brisbee - May 10, 2005 7:04 pm (#283 of 528)
Or was it that he just couldn´t control the temptation to hurt Harry, therefore spoiling the lessons because Harry got angry? --Miriam Huber

I'm going with that explanation. Snape seems unable and unwilling to control his emotions where Harry is concerned, and he is so used to bullying those he wishes to in his classes. Snape resents being stuck with this assignment, so why not take advantage of his position to torment Harry? Okay, my dislike of Snape is showing but for the record I don't think Snape is purposefully sabotaging the lessons for Voldemort's sake. He becomes frustrated and angry later because Harry makes very little progress in Occlumency (Harry doesn't put much effort into it), but Snape seems unable to see himself as the major cause.

- - - - - - - - - -
Ponine - May 10, 2005 7:08 pm (#284 of 528)
I like that, Haymoni... I have always assumed Harry's mind has already been primed by LV, and that Harry is contributing to keeping it open himself. Snape's invasion could easily be his pedagogical way of presenting an incentive to learn how to seal his mind off in a whiffy. Snape's assaults on Harry's mind would not appear to pave the way for LV, in my opinion. And Florence... hm.. I always considered Bertha to be much older, for some reason

- - - - - - - - - -
pottermom34 - May 11, 2005 6:41 am (#285 of 528)
Too bad Snape didn't help Harry to relax and clear his mind by letting him (Harry) put his own thoughts into the pensieve. Perhaps if he was actually trying to help Harry he would. I don't think he was trying to help Harry enough. He seemed to me to have more the "I'm not doing this because I want to" attitude.

- - - - - - - - - -
Choices - May 11, 2005 11:14 am (#286 of 528)
Ponine - "I always considered Bertha to be much older....."

Sirius knew Bertha when he was in school and the Lexicon has her as about 2 years older than Sirius. She is described as very curious and unable to keep her mouth shut.

- - - - - - - - - -
Steve Newton - May 11, 2005 6:57 pm (#287 of 528)
Chapter 25-The Beetle at Bay

11 people have escaped from Azkaban. That we know of. With an escape of that size it seems likely that there was inside help.

Harry is not the only one exposed to the Toad's quill.

Known drinkers: Trelawney, Winky, Mundungus, Hagrid, Sirius. Hagrid seems to have stopped.

Neville is getting pretty good.

Rita's owl is brown.

What is Hermione up to? She tells Harry "Bring her along if you must." Speaking of Cho. When Rita asks about her relationship with Harry she says, "It none of your business if Harry's been with a hundred girls." And, "One more word about Harry's love life and the Deal's off." "One of these days you'll write more horrible stories about Harry and me." She seems to be trying to deflect questions about Harry's love life but if Cho had come the issue would surely have arisen.

Angelina's confidence in Ron shows real leadership. (Angelina is one of my favorite characters.)

Cho notices that there are no dementors. She's not a dummy. She is, however, pretty high maintenance.

The date is excruciating.

- - - - - - - - - -
Mrs Brisbee - May 11, 2005 7:40 pm (#288 of 528)
The date was extremely excrutiating! The Order must still be following Harry, but they were very discrete. Still, I've got to wonder how much of what happened was reported at an Order meeting. That's just too awful to think about.

I've always liked Agelina, too. Harry also stubbornly insists Ron is good at Quidditch.

How can Umbridge inspect every single Divination and Care of Magical Creature class, plus "teach" her own classes? Maybe she only inspects the classes Harry attends?

Hermione says, "And if we can't trust Dumbledore, we can't trust anyone." But Harry isn't sure he trusts Dumbledore after everything that has happened.

My computer is damaged by a virus, so if I stop posting that's why

- - - - - - - - - -
Miriam Huber - May 12, 2005 4:22 am (#289 of 528)
Did Hermione ever realize she helped the twins with their joke products? She gives Harry essence of murtlap, Harry recommends it at Lee because of his detention-bleeding hand and Lee gives the hint to the twins to get rid of those boils... I find this another little, but highly amusing think in JKR´s story.

About the Order following Harry in Hogsmeade: Madam Puddifoot´s was full with nothing except couples, all holding hands, Harry realized. Who from the Order do you think was there, playing couple-in-love? LOL!

- - - - - - - - - -
Steve Newton - May 12, 2005 5:52 am (#290 of 528)
Miriam, I shudder to think that it was Dung in disguise with, say, Snape. What a horrible image.

To correct myself, there are now 12 known escapees from Azkaban. Sirius, 10 DEs and Crouch, a probable DE. Another twelve that I had not seen before.

- - - - - - - - - -
scoop2172000 - May 12, 2005 8:52 am (#291 of 528)
Thoughts on two subjects:

Hermione telling Skeeter to drop the subject of Harry's lovelife: well, Rita had written a nasty, untrue story about the supposed Harry/Hermione/Victor triangle. Here, Hermione protects Harry's burgeoning lovelife by keeping the subject off-limits. Though I do agree it would have been awkward if Cho had come along.

Umbridge inspecting classes while teaching her own: could she be using a time-turner?

- - - - - - - - - -
Steve Newton - May 12, 2005 8:58 am (#292 of 528)
I never got the impression that she spent much time preparing lesson plans and such. I don't know if the schedules overlap.

- - - - - - - - - -
pottermom34 - May 12, 2005 4:55 pm (#293 of 528)
Does anyone else think Cho is using Harry to find out about Cedric. It seems everytime they are alone she starts crying about him and asks Harry what happened, or what he said. Why doesn't she just outright ask if she can just talk to him about Cedric. Her timing about the Cedric matter is not the best if you ask me. Why try to persue Harry while she is still thinking of Cedric, she should give herself time to morn and get passed Cedric. I think it's too soon for her to date she should just try to have Harry for a friend not more at this point.

- - - - - - - - - -
Miriam Huber - May 13, 2005 8:49 am (#294 of 528)
I find JKR´s Cedric-Cho-Harry-triangle brilliant. Hermione explains it rather well. I read Cho´s actions towards Harry as psychological transference. And it is really sad that obviously no one tried to help Cho cope with Cedric´s death, because her way of coping with it is, of course, very problematic. But I don´t blame her. She is 16 and she not only lost what was probably her first ever boyfriend, but the whole situation with Voldemort back or not, (almost) no one really knowing why and how Cedric died, Harry being either a hero or a prat and her feelings all in between...

I find it interesting how often JKR shows us people coping badly (but in a quite understandable way) with what has happened to them. Mostly Harry. Look at him at the end of Oop! Yelling at Dumbledore at a moment when he, Harry, feels guilty (he does not yet know about Dumbledore´s responsibility); Dumbledore tells him about his "power the Dark Lord knows not", and instead of realizing the importance of it he only once again walks around in his guilt circle "If I hadn´t... Sirius would not be dead"; and, of course: "He would never forgive Snape" -- forgive WHAT? Snape has, as far as we know, saved again not only his life but the life of all six of them! Sorry, I´ll stop here, we will get to that chapter later.

- - - - - - - - - -
Mrs Brisbee - May 13, 2005 12:12 pm (#295 of 528)
I agree with pretty much everything you said, Miriam. Harry is emotionally messed up, Cho is emotionally messed up, and they both could use some serious help dealing with Cedric's death, among other things (Harry has a pile of other issues on top of that). The whole relationship was doomed from the start, but Harry's reasons for liking Cho in the first place were sound enough: she is very nice, friendly, intelligent, enjoys Quidditch and is a good player, her treatment of Harry when the rest of the school was ostracizing him in GoF shows her to be an independent thinker, and her determination to learn to fight Voldemort after Cedric's murder is commendable. Harry could have done a lot worse for a first girlfriend.

Edit: Oops, I forgot to mention she was very pretty

- - - - - - - - - -
Miriam Huber - May 13, 2005 1:09 pm (#296 of 528)
Thanks, Mrs. Brisbee Nice to see that obviously your computer has been cared for better than Harry and Cho... And you are right, of course: it wasn´t ALL psychological transference, their possible relationship was already hinted at in GoF.

P.S. Steve, why are you counting Sirius amongst the Death Eaters? I don´t understand the point you want to make.

- - - - - - - - - -
Steve Newton - May 13, 2005 1:39 pm (#297 of 528)
I didn't include Sirius among the DEs. I was listing known escapees from the Big A and he was the first one that I thought of. I also couldn't remember the names of all of the DEs so I just put in the total.

- - - - - - - - - -
Mrs Brisbee - May 13, 2005 2:46 pm (#298 of 528)
Dumbledore says later, in "The Centaur and the Sneak," that he could easily escape from Azkaban. Sirus escaped on his own with no help. Crouch needed outside help to escape. The 10 DEs probably were aided by the dementors (or at least the dementors probably didn't do anything to stop them, given that they weren't out looking for them after their escape).

- - - - - - - - - -
Steve Newton - May 14, 2005 7:29 am (#299 of 528)
Chapter 26-Seen and Unforeseen

The new assertive Neville.

Since Cho had ignored Harry, Hermione must have know that the date had gone badly. Hermione speaks brightly. Fishes for a compliment.

Quidditch creates bad feeling and tension between he houses.

This game is like the World Cup, the team that lost caught the snitch.

13 owls for Harry. (A quick recount shows 12. I'll have to do a reread to count again.

Seamus seems to be pretty honorable.

Is Dumbledore a seer, a good guesser, of have inside information about Trelawney's firing?

The misty doorway is a strong image. It reminds me of something but I can't quite remember what.

- - - - - - - - - -
Miriam Huber - May 14, 2005 8:36 am (#300 of 528)
Is Hermione right in saying that Quidditch is a problem because it causes tensions between the houses? She echoes in some way the Sorting Hat´s preoccupation that his sorting might be wrong in itself because it "splits".

I never felt that way, though. Little groups of students who form a sort of family are a good idea, I think, and Quidditch is just a sport and of course, everybody wants to win, what´s wrong with that?

But, on the other hand, things sometimes do get out of hand: for examples the attacks before the last Quidditch match (and I think there were similar instances in previous years, can´t remember, where) and the teachers who should be good examples of fairness and sportsmanship and are sometimes not really convincing.

But Hogwarts without houses? Without the House Cup to spurt students on? without the competition between the houses, between the teams? I would think this were just another not bad, but exaggerated idea from our world-saving Hermione, if it were not for the Sorting Hat´s song...

Sorry about the long post, but you got me thinking, Steve. Never realized that I had "disagreeing feelings" on that account before. Perhaps because I fear that behind the Sorting Hat at least might be JKR´s opinion.

[Julia H.]

Harry Potter and the Order of the Phoenix Book Read Along (Posts 301-350)


Choices - May 14, 2005 10:06 am (#301 of 528)
It would certainly be a more equitable idea to have four Quidditch teams, but each one made up of members from various houses, all mixed up and playing together. Whatever team won, the victory could be shared by all the houses, not just one.

- - - - - - - - - -
Mrs Brisbee - May 16, 2005 6:57 am (#302 of 528)
The House Cup competition loses more and more importance each year, it seems. I'm not sure what Hogwarts would look like without houses. Maybe there just needs to be an emphasis put on friendly, rather than cut-throat, competition. When you have teachers like Snape who so blatantly favors his own House it undermines everything.

Harry gives making up with Cho and making up with Seamus equal footing. Yup, the Cho-Harry relationship is doomed.

Steve, if you are still keeping track of decapitation imagery, when Harry tells Hermione about his dream from within Voldemort, she "stared with a kind of painful intensity at Fred and George, who were both headless and selling their magical hats from under their cloaks on the other side of the yard."

Ron advised Harry to tell Dumbledore about the dream, which is good advice. Harry refuses. Hermione tells Harry to forget the dream and put more effort into his Occlumency lessons. Harry doesn't want another telling off by Hermione, so he stops talking about his dream to her and Ron. That leaves no one to talk to.

In the Occlumency lesson, there is the hundred dementor image for a third time.

Harry finally makes progress in Occlumency, able to conciously repel Snape's attack for the first time. But Harry has no feeling of accomplishment, just a feeling of dreadful certainty that Snape will make him pay for what he had just done. It's no wonder Harry has a hard time mastering Occlumency. Snape actually shows remarkable restraint and even praises Harry, but Snape does next attack on two rather than three. I think Snape over compensated and pushed too hard.

- - - - - - - - - -
Steve Newton - May 16, 2005 7:14 am (#303 of 528)
Mrs. B., I missed that one. I have heard about he decapitation imagery and decided to keep track. I started a few chapters back but am sure that I missed some early, I'm sure.

- - - - - - - - - -
Mrs Brisbee - May 16, 2005 8:11 am (#304 of 528)
I never paid much attention to the decapitation imagery, Steve, until you mentioned it. This one is interesting because it is a double decapitation. Harry and Voldemort?

- - - - - - - - - -
Steve Newton - May 17, 2005 9:52 am (#305 of 528)
Chapter 27-The Centaur and the Sneak

Firenze doesn't seem to be a very good teacher, either.

Cho produces a Patronus-a swan. Lavender-Silver vapor Neville-Silver smoke Seamus-something hairy-at his first class! Hermione-shining silver otter Did I miss Ron's?

I think that if Harry hadn't stopped to talk to Dobby (the saving people thing) that he would have gotten away.

Why didn't he routinely check the foe glass?

Luna wasn't so spacy at this class.

Harry doesn't seem to be worried about what happens to him. Worries about the others.

Is Marietta's Mom the one who hooked the Dursley's fireplace to the floo network in GOF? A friend of Arthur's?

Is it a Hex of Jinx on Marietta? (I don't know the difference.)

I think that Marietta has acted pretty scummy, but...Umbridge says "I questioned her a little further." A suggestion that perhaps DJU was doing something fishy.

Who is Fortescue, the Corpulent Wizard? He speaks quite often.

"Potter's identical twin" Some have suggested Neville. I don't buy it but the only description that we have received of Neville are round faced and chubby fingers, I think. (JKR's latest update puts a major stopper to the twin idea.)

Shackelbolt is soooooooo cool!

"Come quietly." Does Dumbledore watch movies?

Isn't Dawlish one of those who later try to subdue Kingsley?

Marietta hears Dumbledore implicate Shacklebolt. (This is after the memory thing.)

Dumbledore is not going into hiding but is not seen.

- - - - - - - - - -
Miriam Huber - May 17, 2005 11:50 am (#306 of 528)
What was Dumbledore´s comment (ministry will soon be sorry he is no longer available etc.) about? What did he do and where was he in the following weeks? Do you think we will find out in HBP? or did I miss something?

- - - - - - - - - -
Mrs Brisbee - May 17, 2005 2:29 pm (#307 of 528)
I'd like to know where Dumbledore went and what he did, too. I have no theory to contribute about what he was up to during that time, so moving right along...

Firenze doesn't seem to be a very good teacher, either. --Steve Newton

Divination seems too be a very wooly subject, to echo Hermione. Firenze seems to be there to emphasize that even centaurs cannot always accurately predict the future. Ron grumbles about Firenze's lack of detail on this upcoming war. Maybe the point is that prophecies shouldn't be counted on to provide all the answers. This ties in with Rowling's answer about Neville and the Prophecy, I think. Voldemort put too much value in the Prophecy, and caused the first part of it to come true.

Cho produces a Patronus-a swan. Lavender-Silver vapor Neville-Silver smoke Seamus-something hairy-at his first class! Hermione-shining silver otter Did I miss Ron's?

We don't know that Ron produced a corporeal Patronus. Only Cho's and Hermione's are described as having form and staying power, so I assume that they were the best of the class. I'm really curious what Ron's Patronus will be. Poor Neville doesn't seem able to concentrate on happy enough thoughts to form one.

I think that Marietta has acted pretty scummy, but...Umbridge says "I questioned her a little further." A suggestion that perhaps DJU was doing something fishy.

Marietta apparently went to Umbridge to tell her about the meetings, so I don't think Umbridge applied any pressure, torture, or veritaserum in her office to get Marietta to talk (not that Umbridge wouldn't have if she thought she needed too. I just don't think it was necessary). I am still baffled about what Marietta's motives were for going to Umbridge after six months of meetings. I'm hoping Rowling will briefly revisit the Marietta thing in HBP to tie up a few loose ends.

Marietta hears Dumbledore implicate Shacklebolt. (This is after the memory thing.)

Yeah, I wondered about that too. Did McGonagall have to do some further memory modification before sending Marietta off to bed?

What's with Voldemort and Dumbledore? When Dumbledore touches Harry's arm, Harry feels pain in his scar and the desire to harm Dumbledore again, just like when they had made eye contact in "St. Mungo's". Why is it physical or eye contact that sets this off, but not talking to each other or proximity? I don't get it. Is it just that Voldemort really, really, really hates Dumbledore, or is there some unrevealed connection between

- - - - - - - - - -
Miriam Huber - May 17, 2005 11:20 pm (#308 of 528)
Is Centaur dinivation THAT bad?

Back in PS, I was annoyed with their repeated "Mars is bright tonight" when Hagrid, Harry, Draco, Hermione and Neville were in the Forbidden Forest. It took me several re-reads to realize how right they were, with Voldemort in the forest and about to return.

On the other hand, their prophecies are less exact (Voldemort really returned only three years afterwards, partly thanks to Firenze saving Harry that night) -- and because of that perhaps more reliable than Trewalney´s usual rubbish?

At least, he teaches the students that his science is not fool-proof -- that´s always a good thing to learn and a topic that hints at a mature personality of a teacher.

- - - - - - - - - -
Steve Newton - May 18, 2005 7:49 am (#309 of 528)
I was also surprised that Parvati is not mentioned as producing a Patronus. She has been getting some print and hints that she is pretty good, magically.

- - - - - - - - - -
scoop2172000 - May 18, 2005 11:14 am (#310 of 528)
Thoughts on Marietta and the memory-modification:

Perhaps when Shacklebolt modified her memory, the spell was cast to include the entire time Marietta spent in Dumbledore's office. In other words, there would be a big blank in her memory from the time she went to Umbridge to the time she went back to her dorm (or perhaps straight to the hospital wing)

I can't help but think that when Aunt Marge's memory of being blown up had been modified, the time frame would have included not only the actual episode but also the entire time frame the Ministry representatives were at the Dursley household.

On the other hand, if Marietta DID have the ability to recall the Dumbledore/McGonagle conversation, she was terrified to say anything, lest her skin condition further worsen. She clammed up quickly when she broke out.

- - - - - - - - - -
Steve Newton - May 18, 2005 12:51 pm (#311 of 528)
scoop, I had always assumed that memory erasing would only cover events up to the time of casting. It would be a hard position to prove, though. I do think that Marietta would have been reluctant to talk. Would she remember why? If she couldn't remember why wouldn't she talk. I'm left with the conclusion that Fudge and DJU have very poor follow through.

I used spell check (a very good thing to do) and it questioned the word 'conclusion.' What am I missing? It looks right to me.

- - - - - - - - - -
Choices - May 18, 2005 6:36 pm (#312 of 528)
I think Marietta was in such a frightened/nervous state, and possibly in shock, that she would not have even been aware of Dumbledore saying anything. I think the whole episode had just stunned her and she wasn't thinking very clearly......very much like someone who has been in an accident. They are so shaken up they can't remember many details. We have been told also that people who have their memories modified are a bit fuzzy for a while afterwards and I think that would definitely describe Marietta.

- - - - - - - - - -
Steve Newton - May 19, 2005 3:46 pm (#313 of 528)
Chapter 28-Snape's Worst Memory

Since everyone knows what happened the night before I'm thinking that the portraits are not overly discreet.

DJU was not appointed by the Governors. Is this why the room rejects her?

Jim Dale, on the tapes, does "No idea" perfectly.

Even Happy thoughts make Harry vulnerable.

Hermione feels rebellious.

James looks like Harry but with "deliberate mistakes."

Snape is stringy. Like Nott?

Snape walks twitchy. Like a spider.

Snape must have heard that Lupin is a werewolf. In fact there seems to be no great effort to hide the information.

Lily has "green almond-shaped" eyes. I don't recall such a description anywhere else in the books.

IN GOF Mrs. Roberts' underwear is seen during the attack of the DEs. Draco warns Hermione to stay clear unless she wants everyone to see her underwear. Underwear seems to be tabu in the wizarding world.

James and Sirius respect (fear?) Lily's wand. Previous bad experience or reputation?

What is it with the cockroach references?

- - - - - - - - - -
Choices - May 19, 2005 6:46 pm (#314 of 528)
"Underwear seems to be tabu in the wizarding world."

Or showing it is the ultimate humiliation. (Snape!)

- - - - - - - - - -
Steve Newton - May 19, 2005 7:14 pm (#315 of 528)
Speaking of underwear, or the lack, got me reprimanded recently. No comment.

- - - - - - - - - -
Ticker - May 19, 2005 10:13 pm (#316 of 528)
Edited by May 19, 2005 10:15 pm
Man, I feel the need to tuck in my shirt & check on a few things before I begin...

Snape walks twitchy. Like a spider. - Steve Newton Like a bat?

I've wondered about the Pensive memories. Harry hopes Snape doesn't wander away so he can stay with James & co. Could Harry have wandered someplace else where Snape wasn't eavesdropping? And since memories are often altered in our own minds, is Harry seeing things as Snape remembers or as they actually happened... which makes me wonder about DD's prophecy memory...

Kunkloozhun. Nope. That's not right, but then, apparently shirt isn't either.

- - - - - - - - - -
Miriam Huber - May 20, 2005 5:46 am (#317 of 528)
You know, Steve, it took me about ten re-reads until I got who had blabbed about the scene in Dumbledore´s office if it wasn´t Marietta nor Harry... stupid me

- - - - - - - - - -
Miriam Huber - May 20, 2005 5:48 am (#318 of 528)
You know, Steve, it took me about ten re-reads until I got who had blabbed about the scene in Dumbledore´s office if it wasn´t Marietta nor Harry... stupid me

"Underwear seems tabu in the wizarding world" LOL! Is that special about the WW?

- - - - - - - - - -
Steve Newton - May 20, 2005 8:35 am (#319 of 528)
Well, maybe not.

- - - - - - - - - -
Steve Newton - May 20, 2005 10:39 am (#320 of 528)
Ticker, the 'like a spider' is in the book. Do bats walk twitchy?

- - - - - - - - - -
Choices - May 20, 2005 10:59 am (#321 of 528)
Spiders walk, bats fly.....but, maybe they fly "twitchy". LOL

- - - - - - - - - -
Penny Lane. - May 20, 2005 8:19 pm (#322 of 528)
You know, I really like how underwear seems to be the ultimate humliation in the wizarding world. It seems like a much more pleasant world to be a part of.

Now that I have my books again, I'll start at chapter 28, where you are. .. we really aren't going to get though much more than OoP are we?

Since Harry is in Snape's thoughts/memorys, shouldn't he take it with a grain of salt? Memories are subjective, and if Snape was in the back row with his head down, how could he possibly know what was on James's paper? Likewise, how could he know what they were saying? Could Harry be looking through Snape colored glasses?

- - - - - - - - - -
zelmia - May 20, 2005 8:57 pm (#323 of 528)
Which is what makes it seem that the Pensieve memories are 'as the events actually happened' as opposed to the Rememberer's viewpoint. After all: the viewpoint of the Rememberer is inherant in the Memory. Hence the need for the Pensieve in the first place: to give objectivity.

- - - - - - - - - -
Choices - May 21, 2005 9:23 am (#324 of 528)
I agree Zelmia - wouldn't we all remember embarrassing moments as being a bit less terrible if we could? Snape's ordeal at the hands of James and Sirius was pretty awful, so I think it was as it actually happened, not glossed over as it would be in Snape's mind perhaps. I think he might remember himself as coming off a bit better than he actually did. But the pensieve memory forced him to remember the event as it actually was.

- - - - - - - - - -
Penny Lane. - May 21, 2005 11:08 am (#325 of 528)
Well, what I really mean is, couldn't some of the SnapeHate be in his head? It doesn't seem likely that he would know what James had written/drew on his paper, or exactly what people were saying about him when he was a few feet away.

I also disagree with people remembering things less terrible then they really were. I tend to remember things from High School what I hope was worse then it was when it really happened. Even when it was happening, I have a feeling that I (and many other teenagers) thought their embarrasement was a LOT worse then it really was.

- - - - - - - - - -
Steve Newton - May 23, 2005 6:09 am (#326 of 528)
Chapter 29-Career Advice

When lying to Hermione, Harry doesn't look at her. A result of his occlumency lessons?

Hermione doesn't defend Cho or Marietta.

Harry's example of dangling someone sounds suspiciously like James and Snape.

I must be dense, why does he get choked up at the Easter egg?

ANOTHER bad librarian image.

"I don't much fancy banking," says Hermione. And the entire Wizarding World cheers.

Did Ron take notes in Binn's class?

It's emphasized that DJU is the same height standing and sitting. Seems strange.

Why are " horrible kittens" always mentioned?

Only the head goes through the fire. More decapitation and green.

"Hated each other from the moment they laid eyes on each other." James-Snape, Harry-Draco.

There is a formal method for punishments. Filch needs forms. DJU ignores this later.

A great liberation scene!

F & G are POWERFUL! Accio rips the chains out of the wall.

The chain clattered to the "stone floor." Reminds me of the Hog's Head.

- - - - - - - - - -
Mrs Brisbee - May 23, 2005 6:32 am (#327 of 528)
Well, my computer seems to be working again *eyes computer suspiciously*

I agree it's odd and unlikely that Snape would know what James was writing on a piece of paper. It might be possible to hear conversations that one couldn't make out in real life though, sort of like digitally remastering old recordings.

The final Occlumency lesson seems to have been moved from Monday to another day, or else Harry's class schedule has changed. They were all coming from herbology when they met the Inquisitorial Squad.

Cho calls Marietta "A lovely person who made a mistake" (actually that's Harry paraphrasing Cho in a tone of incredulity). That seems to suggest that Marietta's actions were her own, not the results of threats or bribes, though I could be wrong. It has only just occurred to me that the previous chapter, "The Centaur and the Sneak," is named for two betrayers, Firenze and Marietta. Firenze must think he has something extremely important to offer, or why risk death or banishment? I can't help but compare Firenze's situation with that of Rookwood, who ended up in Azkaban for betraying Ministry secrets to Voldemort. Snape is another betrayer, and he will probably always be somewhat mistrusted even by those who he is truly trying to help.

Edit: Steve posted while I was typing (I'm really slow, especially with my child "helping"). I guess I better get reading to catch up!

- - - - - - - - - -
Miriam Huber - May 23, 2005 6:56 am (#328 of 528)
Steve, I am as dense as you on the Easter-egg. Can someone explain, please?

- - - - - - - - - -
Steve Newton - May 23, 2005 9:48 am (#329 of 528)
Mrs. Brisbee, good catch on the two betrayers.

- - - - - - - - - -
Choices - May 23, 2005 10:08 am (#330 of 528)
Penny Lane - "Even when it was happening, I have a feeling that I (and many other teenagers) thought their embarrassment was a LOT worse then it really was."

That's exactly what I meant - as a teen you think something that happens is just horribly embarrassing, but then years later, as an adult, you look back and laugh and think how stupid you were to have let it bother you. In retrospect, it wasn't nearly as horrible as you thought at the time. That has happened to me so many times and I realize I was just a silly kid who got easily embarrassed and now it wouldn't bother me at all - I'd just laugh it off. Of course, there are things that are genuinely horrible that happen and years later they are still horrible. I don't mean everything that happens to us as kids isn't really as bad, but some things are blow out of proportion by our immature minds and later we look at those memories and just laugh about it.

- - - - - - - - - -
Mrs Brisbee - May 23, 2005 11:59 am (#331 of 528)
I must be dense, why does he get choked up at the Easter egg?

Maybe because it came from "family"? Harry has just had his image of his father --something that has been a great source of strength for him over the years-- totally crushed (the "disillusionment" theme at work). He can't even discuss what happened with his friends. Harry lost his parents when he was a baby, and now he has lost his imaginary image of what they were like. Perhaps Mrs. Weasley's familial gesture of including gifts for him at holidays was enough to choke him up at this point.

- - - - - - - - - -
Choices - May 23, 2005 2:38 pm (#332 of 528)
I agree Mrs. Brisbee - Harry gets a taste of what it must be like to have a Mom who loves him and sends him treats on holidays - he misses his own Mom and gets choked up because she is gone and also because Mrs. Weasley is trying to fill in for Lily by treating Harry like one of her own.

- - - - - - - - - -
applepie - May 23, 2005 2:57 pm (#333 of 528)
I definitely agree with you, Mrs. Brisbee. Harry could in no way consider Aunt Petunia to be a Motherly figure. Mrs. Weasley is the first person to treat him like a loving Mother would treat a Son, and that can start a whole range of emotions for Harry. I got choked up myself on a few parts of similar significance in the books and movies. That is what is so wonderful to me about the series. They envoke such a wide arrangement of emotions on so many levels. I can identify so many characters in so many different ways, and that is what keeps her audience ranging from pre-teens to grandparents.

- - - - - - - - - -
Steve Newton - May 24, 2005 8:27 am (#334 of 528)
I was thinking about the Foe Glass recently. (Too much time on my hands, I guess).

It seems that there is such a thing as Faux Glass. It seems like it would be pronounced the same. What is Faux Glass and could it be of relevance?

- - - - - - - - - -
applepie - May 24, 2005 8:30 am (#335 of 528)
Faux means imitation or fake. So, faux glass would be maybe a plastic or other material that resembled glass.

Foe means:

1 : one who has personal enmity for another
2 a : an enemy in war b : ADVERSARY, OPPONENT
3 : one who opposes on principle
4 : something prejudicial or injurious

Is it a play on words then, or a totally different meaning since Foe is very different than Faux.

- - - - - - - - - -
Steve Newton - May 24, 2005 8:58 am (#336 of 528)
Do you think that we can draw any conclusions? Perhaps I should be clear since its obvious that we can draw conclusions from anything. Should we come to any conclusions about the Foe Glass? Is it false, as Faux might lead us to believe?

- - - - - - - - - -
applepie - May 24, 2005 9:06 am (#337 of 528)
Anything is possible, but I guess I just took it at face value going with the second definition of Foe.

- - - - - - - - - -
Choices - May 24, 2005 9:41 am (#338 of 528)
Steve - is the glass actually called Faux Glass in the book? I don't remember anything but Foe Glass - guess I need to go back and check it out. Harry does tell the DA members that dark aids like Foe Glasses and Sneakascopes shouldn't be completely trusted because they can be fooled, so I guess they could show something faux or false. Interesting thought. It reminds me of when McGonagall, Dumbledore and Snape rush in the help Harry when fake Moody has him in his office after he returns from the graveyard. Snape looks into the Foe Glass to see his own face. McGonagall and Dumbledore didn't look because they know what side they are on, but did Snape look to see if the Foe Glass showed him as Moody/Barty, Jr.'s foe? Was that because there is a question about his affiliation in his own mind, so he wanted to see how the Foe Glass viewed him?

- - - - - - - - - -
Madame Pomfrey - May 24, 2005 9:56 am (#339 of 528)
I haven't seen it spelled any other way than FOE.Isn't it supposed to show you your enemies?If so,does it mean that Snape is his own worst enemy?Didn't he see his own reflection in GoF?



Sorry. Cross posted with Choices.*

- - - - - - - - - -
Steve Newton - May 24, 2005 10:02 am (#340 of 528)
It is only spelled Foe Glass in the book. I was wondering if there is anything about Faux Glass, about which I know nothing, that might give us some insight into the book.

- - - - - - - - - -
Choices - May 24, 2005 10:08 am (#341 of 528)
I think the way it works is that the glass shows the approach of enemies of the person who owns the glass. Barty, Jr. was in possession of the glass, so it showed the approach of Dumbledore, McGonagall and Snape....his enemies. I thought it was curious that Snape would look into the glass to see his own face, like maybe he wondered if he was shown as an enemy of Barty, Jr. Was that revealing that there is a question, even in his own mind, as to what side he is on? He was checking the glass to be sure how it viewed him?

- - - - - - - - - -
Madame Pomfrey - May 24, 2005 10:43 am (#342 of 528)
Thats interesting Choices. I didn't see it that way. He is seen by Barty and therefore Voldemort as the enemy.

- - - - - - - - - -
Mrs Brisbee - May 24, 2005 12:15 pm (#343 of 528)
That's a good insight into why Snape looked into the glass, Choices. Given his position, I suppose he couldn't resist.

And Steve, I love how you think about word play. I confess that I'm one of those dense people who never got Diagon Alley until it was pointed out to me. I've no idea what Faux Glass is, though it does sounds like a plastic bauble, which I realize is no help.

Other thoughts on this chapter:

When Harry tells Ginny he wants to talk to Sirius, she doesn't even ask why, she skips straight to planning how with confidence that the obstacles can be overcome. Fred and George don't care why either, they're just glad to help with the how.

Sometimes Ron reminds me of the young Lupin. He won't assert himself if he thinks it might cause trouble.

When Snape ignores Harry, Harry does fine in Potions.

I loved the conversation Harry has with Lupin and Sirius:

Then Lupin said quietly, "I wouldn't like you to judge your father on what you saw there, Harry. He was only fifteen--"

"I'm fifteen!" said Harry heatedly.

And later in the conversation Sirius says: "...A lot of people are idiots at the age of fifteen. He grew out of it."

I think Rowling is telling us not to worry, Harry will grow up and stop doing all those stupid, maddening things that make me want to tear my hair out.

Harry still doesn't get why Occlumency is important. ARGH!

I think Fred and George must have had their escape carefully planned. Maybe they didn't exactly plan for it to be right then, but I think they knew there was a chance they could get caught, and had everything set up for that eventuality. My guess is that they snuck into Umbridges office at some point, and made sure the chains would break and the brooms could smash through her door, so they had no worries at all when it came to that point.

- - - - - - - - - -
Steve Newton - May 25, 2005 7:27 am (#344 of 528)
Yes, Mrs. Brisbee, I do love word play. I have been known to get off a pun or two.

Anyway, Chapter 30-Grawp

Warrington has skin that looks like is is "coated in corn flakes." Could he have received one of Ginny's Bat Bogey Hexes?

Harry and Ron's arrival by car should also be a legend but we haven't heard of it since.

The founders are also legends. I don't trust anything that we've been told about them.

In the USA punting has come to mean kicking. Punting the students across the swamp would be a strange image.

Hermione's teacup has willow patterned legs. I can't remember who has a willow wand.

Why does Hermione think of Cho when she sees Luna's eagle?

Hagrid fought half the centaur herd. That's tough.

Giants have 2 chapters pretty much to themselves. They must be very important. I wish I had a clue as to why.

Hermione is clearly overwhelmed by Grawp.

Hagrid says "after I've gone." Sounds like death.

In Ron's greatest moment he bumps his head.

- - - - - - - - - -
Mrs Brisbee - May 25, 2005 3:02 pm (#345 of 528)
I agree that all the info on giants will be important, unfortunately the likely reason will be because Voldy will have some on his side.

We get a good glimpse of just how tough Hagrid is, if he is able to take on half the herd of centaurs by himself and rescue Firenze.

Magorian characterizes Firenze as a traitor for agreeing to teach Divination at the school.

- - - - - - - - - -
Choices - May 25, 2005 6:31 pm (#346 of 528)
The giants sound like a thoroughly unruly bunch who pretty much live for themselves and do what they want. Even if Voldemort enlists their aid, how cooperative will they be and if he can't control them, they sure won't be much of an asset to him.

- - - - - - - - - -
Steve Newton - May 25, 2005 6:50 pm (#347 of 528)
WARNING! I've learned how to do smileys!

- - - - - - - - - -
Choices - May 25, 2005 6:57 pm (#348 of 528)
LOL Oh, clever you!! Then why isn't it smiling? LOL

- - - - - - - - - -
Mrs Brisbee - May 25, 2005 7:40 pm (#349 of 528)
Ooooh, I'm jealous, Steve. I only know how to make a regular smiley, and I'm even too tired to remember how at the moment.

Choices, you are right on the giants. They do seem like they would make unreliable allies. But bring a few to the U.K. and they could cause a lot of destruction and confusion, and tie up a lot of Ministry resources in the process. They would make an effective diversion.

Warrington has skin that looks like is is "coated in corn flakes." Could he have received one of Ginny's Bat Bogey Hexes? --Steve Newton

Someone, on some thread, once explained that bogeys are actually snot. So picture big flapping snot bats all over someone's face (it's so gross I almost wish that it hadn't been explained. Ewww). The corn flake thing is weird, but I don't remember any spell being mentioned that has that effect. The closest thing I can think of is wartcap powder, but I think that effect was grey?

Pansy ended up with antlers, which makes me suspect a DA member was responsible, since they all know Harry makes a stag Patronus.

Harry and Ron's arrival by car should also be a legend but we haven't heard of it since.

I think Ron and Harry would just as soon forget that incident.

Fred and George acted out a deep-seated student fantasy in front of the entire school, so I don't think they'll be soon forgotten.

The centaurs want to control who goes in and out of the Forbidden Forest. Hagrid claims as much right to it as the centaurs. Does the MoM have jurisdiction there?

- - - - - - - - - -
Ms Amanda - May 25, 2005 8:02 pm (#350 of 528)
"Does the MoM have jurisdiction there?"

Gee, it depends on who you ask. The centaurs certainly don't believe so.

[Julia H.]

Harry Potter and the Order of the Phoenix Book Read Along (Posts 351-400)


Miriam Huber - May 26, 2005 12:51 am (#351 of 528)
Good point on the giants, Choices. Seems as if once more Voldemort has recruited followers that are not really loyal but will leave him the moment he can no longer satisfy them. What a weak empire.

- - - - - - - - - -
Mrs Brisbee - May 26, 2005 7:32 am (#352 of 528)
Hagrid does like to use the Forbidden Forest as a repository for his dangerous creatures, and acts like he has every right to do so. I'm wondering how the centaurs feel about this. They don't seem happy about Grawp being there, but they got on fine with Hagrid before the Firenze incident. How seriously are the rights of centaurs to govern themselves taken by wizards? I'm just wondering how they fit in.

It struck me that Warrington being coated in cornflakes sounds kind of like a kitcheny spell, like something Mrs Weasley would use while cooking. Maybe it was Ginny who cast it after all, putting a house hold spell she picked up at home to creative use.

- - - - - - - - - -
Steve Newton - May 26, 2005 12:42 pm (#353 of 528)
OK, Choices.

- - - - - - - - - -
Mrs Brisbee - May 26, 2005 3:23 pm (#354 of 528)
I've been a bit lax about hunting for the themes of the book in each chapter. We touched upon the loyalty and betrayal of Firenze to his people. For the "ignorance is dangerous" theme, we have Magorian explain that Firenze is peddling centaur knowledge to the humans, which is why they are mad at him. So what Firenze has to offer at Hogwarts is knowledge. He is teaching all the Divination students that another war is about to start, and he can do it despite the MoM stance and the educational decree that forbids teachers from discussing things outside their area of study because it falls within the centaur skill of divination.

We also have the theme of "obligation" shown by Hagrid, who as a "big" brother fulfills his familial obligation to take care of Grawp whether Grawp likes it or not.

- - - - - - - - - -
Quidditch Mom - May 27, 2005 5:13 am (#355 of 528)
When you think about it, it is quite amazing that Hagrid (and Madame Maxime) are as kind, gentle and intelligent as they are.

Giants are shown as mean-tempered and rather stupid, and that is half their gene pool!

Hagrid was raised human, and presumably, so was Maxime. Perhaps socialization can and does play a key role in this, so there is some hope for Grawp yet. He may be the link the Order needs to recruit the giants to their side.

Or, he could just be in the Forbidden Forest so his gigantic feet can stomp out all those nasty spiders. :-)

- - - - - - - - - -
pottermom34 - May 27, 2005 8:36 am (#356 of 528)
I think we'll see Hagrid's "giant" temper very soon.

- - - - - - - - - -
applepie - May 27, 2005 8:38 am (#357 of 528)
I think I only recall him showing some of that GIANT temper when someone insults or attacks Dumbledore.

But, feel free to correct me if I am wrong...

- - - - - - - - - -
Steve Newton - May 27, 2005 8:49 am (#358 of 528)
He does seem to get pretty ticked when Fang is stunned.

- - - - - - - - - -
Choices - May 27, 2005 10:41 am (#359 of 528)
Lovely smilie, Steve. LOL :-)

- - - - - - - - - -
Steve Newton - May 27, 2005 2:05 pm (#360 of 528)

- - - - - - - - - -
Mrs Brisbee - May 27, 2005 3:26 pm (#361 of 528)
Hey, if Grawp does start stomping on spiders, Ron might take to him!

- - - - - - - - - -
zelmia - May 27, 2005 10:04 pm (#362 of 528)
Ron hasn't met Grawp, has he?

- - - - - - - - - -
Steve Newton - May 28, 2005 10:49 am (#363 of 528)
WE have yet to see Ron together with Grawp. Unless he saw him in the Forest on the way to rescue Harry and Hermione he know Grawp only by reputation.

Chapter 31 O.W.L.S.

Ron responds to the news of Grawp pretty well.

One other quidditch player rumpled his hair the same way under the same tree. James. He seems to be dead.

My book says "Whether Lupin had ever told Snape that he must continue giving Harry Occllumency tuition . This must be a misprint.

Ernie is so cool. Hours of study. 8, 10, 9.5, 7.25. I haven't tried them on the phone on JKR's site.

Draco is probably trying to unnerve people. Marchbanks seems to be a Dumbledore supporter.

Are there 2 exams for each subject? Theory and practice. 1 OWL?

Examiners are ancient looking. Dumbledore is 170 and Marchbanks tested him. 200+

4 stunners take out Mcgonagall. One of the attackers was down. This means one of the attackers did not attack Mcgonagall. Who?

The fight took 4 minutes. And a long minute of quivering silence.

At the end DJU had one helper left. Somebody else was out of the fight.

Ernie seems to take it well. How do you shake your head pompously?

Colin seems to keep up on things.

Hagrid running away with Fang over his should is an image that seems like it should ring a bee. It doesn't. Samson perhaps?

- - - - - - - - - -
Mrs Brisbee - May 28, 2005 2:04 pm (#364 of 528)
Harry smiles when Ron rumples his hair. He is coming to terms with the image of his fifteen year old father.

Marchbanks is ancient. She tested Dumbledore in NEWT level Transfiguration and Charms. She lets us know that Dumbledore is amazing at Charms as well as Transfiguration.

Umbridge has a nasty smile on her face after Harry’s DADA exam. Why?

Hermione is upset about her Ancient Rune mistake: “ehwaz” means “partnership” not “defense.” Hermione is quick to leap to the defense of the oppressed, such as the house elves, but doesn’t work with them. Her one mistake that might make the difference between success a failure.

I wonder if Marchbanks will meet a round, soggy stranger?

Ron often gives good advice, and his advice on Prophecies is a gem, in my opinion: “And from now on, I don’t care if my tea leaves spell die, Ron, die--I’m chucking them in the bin where they belong.”

I’m really lame at astronomy, so help me sort this out: Harry places Orion on his star chart. Sirius was Orion’s dog, right? Harry is trying to place Venus when he is distracted by Umbridge’s party going to Hagrid’s. He forgets Venus’s position. He stares at the moon even though he placed its position an hour ago. In Greek mythology Diana the moon goddess is tricked into killing Orion by Apollo, god of prophecy. Or does the moon represent Lupin here? Then Harry realizes he has mislabeled Venus as Mars. What does the Venus and Mars thing mean? Prefect Marcus had a creative explanation in the Harry’s Ship Uniting the Houses thread, that it refers to Pansy Parkinson, although I don’t buy that theory. Is it a refference to Harry’s relationship with Cho? Harry knows where Orion and the moon are, but has trouble nailing down Venus’s position. What does it all mean, if anything???

Hagrid is incredibly tough. The aurors didn’t do their homework about giants and keep trying to stun him.

Is it coincidental that Hagrid and McGonagall are eliminated the night before Harry has his vision?

- - - - - - - - - -
Steve Newton - May 28, 2005 7:55 pm (#365 of 528)
What soggy stranger?

- - - - - - - - - -
Ticker - May 28, 2005 10:09 pm (#366 of 528)
A round, dark one. I'm just hoping it's Umbridge after falling in another swamp.

Favorite quote, "Such a lovely, sweet-tempered girl," said Ron, very quietly, proding his queen forward so that she could begin beating up one of Harry's knights.

- - - - - - - - - -
Miriam Huber - May 29, 2005 2:49 am (#367 of 528)
Harry smiles when Ron rumples his hair. He is coming to terms with the image of his fifteen year old father. - Mrs Brisbee

Yes, I loved that scene, too, and out of this reason. And don´t you think at the end of OoP Harry would understand Lupin´s phrase "most people are idiots at the age of fifteen?"

“ehwaz” means “partnership” not “defense.” - Mrs. Brisbee

I always took that - now don´t throw dungbombs at me, I don´t know how to do an unperturbable charm! - another funny clue for Hermione´s and Ron´s coming ´ship. If I remember rightly, she said it to Ron, Ron was asking, and I can quite see in this confusion of translations a trait of her character that has prevented that very obvious ´ship to really sail until now. "Defense" instead of "partnership" - that´s quite Hermione! When will she take Ron as a partner instead of snapping at him and defending her unsure self with being an insufferable know-it-all?

- - - - - - - - - -
Mrs Brisbee - May 29, 2005 6:31 am (#368 of 528)
What soggy stranger?

Harry is sure he has failed his Divination OWL. During the exam he reads tea leaves for Marchbanks, and predicts she will meet a round, soggy stranger. Not that Harry's OWL score in this subject is very important, because it's unlikely he'll pursue Divination even with a passing grade. I just thought it might be amusing if she actually did meet a round, soggy stranger.

Favorite quote, "Such a lovely, sweet-tempered girl," said Ron, very quietly, prodding his queen forward so that she could begin beating up one of Harry's knights. --Ticker

Oh, is this from "O.W.L.S"? I was thinking there were only two chess games, one in "Occlumency" and one in "The Second War Begins". I completely missed this one. So is Ron's queen Hermione and Harry's knight Ron?

The "ehwaz" thing is open to interpretation. I definitely think it is telling us something about a flaw in Hermione's personality. Actually Miriam's interpretation works well too, even setting aside the shipping aspect of it.

- - - - - - - - - -
Steve Newton - May 29, 2005 8:26 am (#369 of 528)
Thanks for the memory jog.

- - - - - - - - - -
Steve Newton - May 30, 2005 9:31 am (#370 of 528)
Chapter 32-Out of the Fire

Harry has a 'saving people thing.' A suggestion of a theme that we can't discuss.

Why doesn't Hermione remember Snape?

Nobody pays attention to what Luna says.

Why couldn't Ginny and Luna give the alarm?

Neville to the, almost, rescue again. the 'saving people thing.'

Snape tells Crabbe to loosen his grip. This is helpful a short time later.

DJU points her wand at Harry's scar.

Hermione can think quick!

"Little Miss Questionall." DJU gets off another.

- - - - - - - - - -
Ticker - May 30, 2005 9:48 pm (#371 of 528)
Edited by May 30, 2005 9:48 pm
Why couldn't Ginny and Luna give the alarm? -Steve

Or Hermione? Surely there was a moment or two before she was subdued. And why were all the Inquisitorial Squad members so close by?

- - - - - - - - - -
Mrs Brisbee - May 31, 2005 6:29 am (#372 of 528)
I wondered why they couldn't raise the alarm too. The last time Harry broke into Umbridge's office he could hear a muttering Filch coming from a long way off. Maybe we just underestimate Malfoy and the Inquisitorial Squad. Malfoy did manage to catch Harry after the last DA meeting.

Hermione can think quick! --Steve Newton

Yes, that was a quick and clever lie. And a bit spooky. Her concocted story is that they need to contact Dumbledore so they can tell him that the "weapon" is ready. I'd say the "weapon" is definitely ready to hear from Dumbledore all about the Prophecy, and how he should beware of being tricked into going to the DoM.

McGonagall has gone to St. Mungo's. Harry is shocked to find that McGonagall too is to be included amongst us mortals. It never occurred to him that she could be so badly injured, and removed from Hogwarts.

Ginny and Luna let Harry know that he is out of line with his rudeness to them.

Luna: "When you say 'Sirius,' are you talking about Stubby Boardman?" One reason I love Rowling's books so much is she never forgets the humor, even in the darkest circumstances.

Kreacher is another betrayer. Unlike many of the other betrayers,he never had the choice of who to serve in the first place, or the option of leaving Sirius's service.

Umbridge doesn't trust her followers. A leaders lack of trust in their followers is an ongoing theme.

- - - - - - - - - -
Steve Newton - May 31, 2005 7:38 am (#373 of 528)
I think that you are right. The weapon is pretty much ready. (This doesn't bode well for Dumbledore, I think.) Harry has bettered Voldemort several times now, in front of witnesses. The GOF display was probably the most embarrassing.

Could Stubby Boardman really be important? He has been mentioned several times.

- - - - - - - - - -
Mrs Brisbee - May 31, 2005 4:13 pm (#374 of 528)
Why doesn't Hermione remember Snape? --Steve Newton

Good question. She is always going on about how Snape must really truly be one of the good guys because Dumbledore trusts him. The only thing I can think of was that she was trying to calm Harry down, and was afraid "Hey, I know! Let's go tell Snape!" might not have achieved the desired effect.

And I doubt Stubby Boardman is important, but it's a great name (Hey, I once had a couple of pet mice named Stubby and Skeeter! That was about 15 years ago though).

- - - - - - - - - -
zelmia - May 31, 2005 9:25 pm (#375 of 528)
My suggestion for why no one thought to go to Snape was that:
a) Snape is hardly approachable as one to confide in
b) Had they gotten past that and chosen to confide in Snape, given his history with Sirius, they were probably afraid that Snape would do nothing - apart from gloating, that is
c) Like Harry, they truly did forget that Snape was an Order memeber who could possibly be of assistance in spite of the aforementioned.

- - - - - - - - - -
Mrs Brisbee - Jun 1, 2005 5:26 am (#376 of 528)
Had they gotten past that and chosen to confide in Snape, given his history with Sirius, they were probably afraid that Snape would do nothing - apart from gloating, that is. --zelmia

Lack of trust in Snape is a serious weakness for everyone here, and I've got to lay the blame for that mostly with Snape. Dumbledore's desire for an "equally strong bond of friendship and trust" with which to counter Voldemort needs a lot of work.

- - - - - - - - - -
zelmia - Jun 1, 2005 9:45 pm (#377 of 528)
I heartily agree Mrs B. Snape really needs to work on his interpersonal skills.
On the other hand, when one considers that he has trained himself to overcome even the slightest personal tic that could potentially give not only himself, but Dumbledore et al away, it's really no wonder that he's so difficult to reach.
But back on the first hand, we see how he treats his pet whipping boy students so, there you are.

- - - - - - - - - -
Steve Newton - Jun 2, 2005 6:43 pm (#378 of 528)
Chapter 33-Fight and Flight

"Their long dark shadows rippled over the grass behind them like cloaks." I like the image.

DJU seems to think that going into the Forbidden Forest could bring death. Its OK if the kids die. She assumes that her values are the Ministry's.

Hermione is in control. She forces the pace on DJU.

Harry is a shield.

DJU was probably legally correct but when people are shooting at you that just isn't enough.

Even when attacked the centaurs do not kill.

Who is the gray centaur with a doleful voice?

Centaurs are good shots.

Grawp is a small giant and is tough.

Harry says, "I'm not all that fussed, to be honest." Great line.

Of the rescuers all but Luna have injuries. DJU's office is the first battle of the new war.

Pay attention to what Luna says!

They are not, exactly, going to fight Voldemort. They just have to distract him and get Sirius out.

I don't think that any of the group actually realized what they were doing, going into a possible serious fight.

- - - - - - - - - -
zelmia - Jun 2, 2005 8:42 pm (#379 of 528)
I disagree. I think Hermione, at least, was pretty sure that someone would be there waiting for them. Which is why she tries to warn Harry with the "have a rescue thing" speech. Ron seems wary as well, but spoiling for a fight. I think he wants someone to take things out on and maybe to prove to his mum that he's a worthy Order member.

- - - - - - - - - -
Mrs Brisbee - Jun 3, 2005 7:10 am (#380 of 528)
But they don't seem to have had any sort of plan. Six kids going out to look for Voldemort is mad. Hermione did suspect they were walking into a trap, but Kreacher had confirmed Sirius wasn't at 12 Grimmauld Place, she had already promised Harry she would help, and I think she was still shaken by her how her plan to get rid of Umbridge had played out. Ron is gaining confidence in himself and his abilities, but I'm not sure that looking for a fight just to prove himself sounds very Ron-like. Thinking about his past actions I'd say he fights when he thinks the cause is worthwhile. Luna, Ginny, and Neville don't know exactly what they are getting themselves into, but in one of those stand-up-and-cheer moments they refuse to let the others fly off to London without them, showing the strength of their conviction and loyalty. And Harry is thinking the least clearly of any of them.

In Umbridge's office Ron, Ginny, Luna, and Neville manage to take out their captors without Harry or Hermione's help, proving their competence. Luna and Neville seem to have especially benefited from the DA meetings. I think this shows that as a group, the followers in the DA are capable of getting on without their leaders present (I count Hermione as a leader because she is the founder of the DA, and she is also its best student. I think Ron is only just starting to realize his potential). A group that shows it can act successfully without its leaders (micromanaging every action) shows its strength.

Grawp is a small giant and is tough. --Steve Newton

One runt giant versus fifty armed centaurs, and Hermione fears the giant might kill all the centaurs. I've come to conclusion that giants are scary.

My favorite line comes from Ron: "Is it those mad horse things?...Those ones you can't see unless you've watched someone snuff it?" Newt Scamander should use that description in Fantastic Beasts and Where To Find Them!

- - - - - - - - - -
Steve Newton - Jun 3, 2005 8:06 am (#381 of 528)
I think that all of them following Harry, knowing that he hadn't really thought it through, shows how far Harry has come as a leader. (Take that to those who think that it would even be possible to end the DA.)

Hermione's promise. Promises seem to be very important in the Wizarding World. The kids promised to look after Grawp and seemed committed to it if Hagrid didn't come back.

- - - - - - - - - -
Mrs Brisbee - Jun 3, 2005 8:21 am (#382 of 528)
I think you are right about he DA. Learnig to work together is such an important theme, and key to defeating Voldemort, so the DA should definitely continue.

- - - - - - - - - -
Madame Pomfrey - Jun 3, 2005 8:24 am (#383 of 528)
Steve,You said to pay attention to what Luna says.Is there something in particular you want us to notice?

- - - - - - - - - -
Steve Newton - Jun 3, 2005 9:55 am (#384 of 528)
Ya know its like this. I note them when I read them but I haven't written them down. I know that she speaks of riding and everyone ignores her when she is right on. There are other times when she is giving good information or asking the right question. I'll try to look them up. Obviously one of them was in this chapter. I'll check it out again tonight to see what I meant. I now think that perhaps I should go back a reread carefully everything that Luna has said. Bring on Stubby!

- - - - - - - - - -
Madame Pomfrey - Jun 3, 2005 10:08 am (#385 of 528)
I know what you mean about Luna. It seems everyone ignors her-writes her off as a nutter. However,I think she has valuable information if people would just question her further.After all, she is vague.I really enjoy her character and wonder how many off the wall things she says actually are true.

- - - - - - - - - -
Mrs Brisbee - Jun 3, 2005 11:39 am (#386 of 528)
I know what you mean about Luna, too. I noticed Harry was still being very rude to her this chapter. I think she is a bit nutty myself, but her out-of-the-mainstream viewpoint is valuable because it offers a different way of looking at things that might not otherwise be considered. The more different viewpoints you use when consider something, the more in depth the perspective.

- - - - - - - - - -
Choices - Jun 3, 2005 7:00 pm (#387 of 528)
Luna definitely seems quite competent in everything she does. She appears to be familiar with riding - knowing how to ride side-saddle. I wonder where she learned it? She projects a "space cadet" image, but her knowledge seems very broad.

- - - - - - - - - -
Mrs Brisbee - Jun 3, 2005 8:17 pm (#388 of 528)
Perhaps she and her father make regular holiday expeditions doing out-of-the-ordinary things, like learning to ride strange creatures?

- - - - - - - - - -
Steve Newton - Jun 4, 2005 5:12 am (#389 of 528)
Some Luna comments in this chapter that folks should have paid attention to.

761 "We'll have to fly, won't we."

762 "I thought we's settled that. We're flying."

"There are other ways of flying than broomsticks."

"...Hagrid says they're very good at finding places their riders are looking for."

All of these comments seem more or less to be ignored by the others. The last would seem to indicate that she pays attention in class. I think that I detect just the barest hint of impatience in the broomsticks line. Probably just me.

All page numbers are from the American hardcover edition.

- - - - - - - - - -
Steve Newton - Jun 5, 2005 1:41 am (#390 of 528)
Chapter 34-The Department of Mysteries

The description of the thestrals is very strange. Skeletal and silky.

Descriptions of Neville so far: round face(like his mother in the picture), pudgy hand, short leg.

How far is it from Hogwarts to London?

So far all of the books have had underground climaxes. SS the tasks, COS, the chamber, OOTP the elevator down. In POA they go through a tunnel to get to the shrieking shack. GOF doesn't really fit. There is the maze and the cemetery.

First door-lamps on golden chains, long rectangle tanks with deep green water, brains.

Hermione has another great idea, mark the doors.

The fiery crosses have always bothered me. My first connection is with the KKK. I'm sure that JKR didn't mean this but it is my connection.

Second door-Large, dim, rectangular, stone pit in center, stone benches, stone dais, stone archway. The archway is ancient and veiled.

Hear something through the archway-Harry (hypnotized), Luna. Not hear anything-Hermione, Ron. Ginny and Neville are entranced. What do these pairings have in common?

Third door-won't open. Melts the knife (a really bad sign, I think) Ron has apprehension and longing.

Fourth door-Bingo! Dancing, diamond sparkling light, clocks, crystal bell jar, egg/humming bird. Ginny is attracted.

Ron is the one who spots the prophecy.

The elusive (?) before Harry's name.

- - - - - - - - - -
Mrs Brisbee - Jun 5, 2005 6:04 am (#391 of 528)
This chapter did answer one of those burning questions I've always wanted the answer to: How many Hogwarts students can fit into a phone booth?

Another question I'd like answered is what happened to the poor security guy, and the Order member who was supposed to be watching the door to the DoM?

Harry tries to get the group to split up by suggesting some of them stay behind as "lookouts". The group refuses. Harry isn't an autocrat and the group will override him when he makes stupid suggestions.

The DoM is big, but I think we only ever see six(?) rooms (plus hear about the astronomy room later from Luna).

That's a lot of prophecies in the Hall of Prophecies!

- - - - - - - - - -
Steve Newton - Jun 5, 2005 7:36 am (#392 of 528)
Is the answer 6?

- - - - - - - - - -
Mrs Brisbee - Jun 5, 2005 7:55 am (#393 of 528)
Well, let's see....

The round room with twelve doors, the Brain Room, the Death Chamber, the Time Room, the Hall of Prophecies, and a small office (seen next chapter). That's six. In addition there was also the room with all the planets that Luna described (next chapter), and the mystery room that wouldn't open.

- - - - - - - - - -
Choices - Jun 5, 2005 6:44 pm (#394 of 528)
The prophesy is on shelf unit #97 - could this imply or be a clue that the prophesy will come to pass in 1997 - the year it will be at the beginning of book 7?

- - - - - - - - - -
Miriam Huber - Jun 6, 2005 1:26 am (#395 of 528)
By the way, I can´t help but find this "rescue mission" quite pathetic. Really, I love Harry and his stout heart, but, as some already pointed out in the last chapter, they don´t have any plan and Harry thinks he will meet Voldemort! Going down in that telephone box, just straightforward... Ok, I admit they had probably no choice, but nevertheless...

And once Snape was out of the door, nobody at any time thought about going for help - not even sending an owl hoping it would find Dumbledore or anything.

In this respect, Harry really has to grow up and realize what he can and can´t do. But he has learned that lesson in the MoM - and a very hard lesson it was.

By the way, I LOVE that telephone box scene with the badges. Just exasperating and funny at the same time.

- - - - - - - - - -
Mrs Brisbee - Jun 6, 2005 6:18 am (#396 of 528)
Is the answer 6? --Steve Newton



Smacks self on forehead* Oh yeah, you were referring to the phone booth comment! What can I say, I'm a bit slow sometimes.

The prophesy is on shelf unit #97 - could this imply or be a clue that the prophesy will come to pass in 1997 - the year it will be at the beginning of book 7? --Choices

Having the final battle between Harry and Voldy before '98 would break the established structure of Rowling's books....Which she might do, just to throw us a curve ball. I've been operating under the assumption that the resolution of the Prophecy signals the end of the story, but maybe it doesn't? It would be really weird if there was more to go...

Third door-won't open. Melts the knife (a really bad sign, I think) Ron has apprehension and longing. --Steve Newton

Ron's reaction is odd. I sort of dismissed Zelmia's notion that Ron is spoiling for a fight to prove himself, but her idea would explain his reactions in the DoM.

Miriam, I agree with everything you said.

- - - - - - - - - -
Steve Newton - Jun 7, 2005 6:10 am (#397 of 528)
Edited Jun 7, 2005 7:18 am
Chapter 35-Beyond the Veil

Well I have quite a lot here. This will be my observations/comments/questions. I also tried to do a list of all of the spells we see that are thrown during the battle. Wanted to see if anything came to mind. I will post that later.

Finally, Harry starts thinking.

The kids respond as a team. Harry is ready!

Lucius is, again, giving away important knowledge. He lets it be known that he MUST save the prophecy.

The 2 lost prophecies. The solstices are in December and June, right? "None will come after." They must be connected. Not only does JKR tell them but they are on the shelf near the biggie.

The Death Eaters seem to have the same kind of plan as the kids. (None) Just "Give it to me."

Do we ever find out what happens to the DE in the Bell Jar?

Everything stops when Ron calls the brain.

Neville says, "He's still God be!" A suggestion of the topic we are not allowed to discuss.

- - - - - - - - - -
Mrs Brisbee - Jun 7, 2005 7:00 am (#398 of 528)
Great list of observations, Steve.

Finally, Harry starts thinking.

The kids respond as a team. Harry is ready!

And what a difference having a plan makes! The kids again show their competence, working together. On the DE side Bellatrix is a bit of a loose cannon. If she had acted with restraint instead of trying to attack Harry, he wouldn't have gotten the idea to smash shelves.

Lucius is, again, giving away important knowledge. He lets it be known that he MUST save the prophecy.

Good point. Is he just stupid? Or maybe like most Evil Bad Guys he doesn't know that you should first accomplish your mission, and then gloat.

The 2 lost prophecies. The solstices are in December and June, right? "None will come after." They must be connected. Not only does JKR tell them but they are on the shelf near the biggie.

You know, I never put much stock in those prophecies being related to The Prophecy, but your point about them being near it is telling if Choices suggestion that the row number relates to the year the prophecy finalizes is correct. Chances are the books will end in '98 though.

The Death Eaters seem to have the same kind of plan as the kids. (None) Just "Give it to me."

LOL. I think the DEs expected it to be a cakewalk, and for only Harry, Ron, and Hermione to show up. They didn't know about all those secret DA meetings.

Do we ever find out what happens to the DE in the Bell Jar?

No, though I suspect the permanent spell damage ward in ST. Mungo's. Rowling tells as a little about how Time works in her books with the bell jar. When the Time Turners are smashed by Neville, it creates a kind of time bubble like that in the bell jar --falling and smashing, re-integrating, then falling and smashing again and again. Whatever powers the Time Turners seems to be the same stuff as is in the bell jar. I noticed that the DE's head doesn't progress to old age, just from the present to babyhood and back again. It looks like time travel to the future is not possible with what's there. I also thought it was a good move of Rowling's to have Neville smash the Time Turners. It saves all those "Well, why didn't so-and-so just grab a Time Turner and go back and change such-and-such" what-ifs.

Everything stops when Ron calls the brain.

I thought that was a great scene. Some things are just so repulsively fascinating and bizarre that even the DEs were shocked into watching. I guess that just proves that even if they've been around the block a few times, the things in the department of mysteries are unknown and compelling.

Neville says, "He's still God be!" A suggestion of the topic we are not allowed to discuss.

I think that's supposed to be a lower case "g"

I'll post my chapter notes later.

- - - - - - - - - -
Steve Newton - Jun 7, 2005 7:18 am (#399 of 528)
Edited Jun 7, 2005 8:31 am
I suspect that Lucius, and maybe Snape, are (is) playing a very deep game. He constantly, usually through Draco, is giving Harry important knowledge.

I like your thinking about time. We have seen no indication that travel into the future is possible.

Slight addition made.

- - - - - - - - - -
Steve Newton - Jun 7, 2005 11:27 am (#400 of 528)
There seems to be a break in the action so here is my list of spells cast during the battle. These are from 2 chapters. I only did the ones that we see. Sort of.

Bella-Accio Harry-protego Bella-stupefy (red flash) Lucius-? Kids-5 reductos Hermione-stupefy Hermione-colloportus DE-alohamora Harry-stupefy DE-avada (not completed) Neville-expelliarmas Neville-stupefy DE-stupefy Hermione-stupefy Hermione-accio Hermione-colo... not completed d DEs-impedimenta Hermiione-silencio Harry-petrificus totalus DE-? purple flame-Hermione down Harry-petrificus totalus Elsewhere-A DE did something to Ron. (I hope it was a DE.) Off screen-Luna-reductor DEs-several stunning spells Harry-colloportus Luna, Neville, Harry-colloportus Ron-accio Harry-diffindo (no idea what this is) DE-red (stupefy?) Ginny down Neville-stubefy-3 times pronounced incorrectly DE-stunner DE- 2 streams of silver light Neville-stubefy 3 times Bella-crucio

The OOTP arrives

Tonks-stunning ---raining spells--- Harry stupefy Dolohov-tarantallegra Dolohov-repeat of Hermione (can't read my writing) Harry-protego Dolohov-accio Dolohov-slashing movement Harry-petrificus totalus DEs 2 stunners DE-green light (AK?) DE-green Harry-impedimenta

--Dumbledore arrives--

AD-pulls back DE Bella-red Bella-something unknown Sirius-unknown (not enough, obviously) Lupin-finite AD-something at Bella-deflected Bella-curse Harry-wingardium leviosa Bella-unknown spell at Harry Harry-crucio Bella-counterspell-head of the statue gone Bella-crucio-hits centaur statue-arm gone Harry-stupefy Bella-protego-goblin statue loses ear Bella 2 accios Bella-green (AK or something else?) Voldy-AK AD-human statue jumps in front with arms spread (looks like a cross?) Voldy-green light AD-statue animated Bella-spells at statue AD-something big-Harry's hair stands on end LV silver shield LV green AD-whip/flame LV-rope to serpent LV-green AD-snake gone, LV covered in water LV-around Harry LV exit

Sorry for the length. Any surprises or trends to spot?

Edit-apologies for the poor spacing.

[Julia H.]

Harry Potter and the Order of the Phoenix Book Read Along (Posts 401-450)


Mrs Brisbee - Jun 7, 2005 12:19 pm (#401 of 528)
Wow, that's a lot of spells. I'll have to read through it several more times to see if any patterns pop out. The only thing that struck me when reading the chapter was that tarantallegra reminds me of tarantella, a frenzied dance that was believed to act as an antidote to spider bites. Draco used the spell on Harry during the dueling club in CoS. Is causing your opponent to tap dance somehow shady, as Draco and Dolohov are the only people we have seen cast that spell? It just seems an odd choice of spell for Dolohov, who is infamous for having murdered the Prewetts and has his own Evil Bad Guy signature spell. But I guess no spell is too lowly if it turns out to be useful.

- - - - - - - - - -
Steve Newton - Jun 7, 2005 12:49 pm (#402 of 528)
Mrs. B, I was also surprised by the number of times Dolohov was named. Perhaps bigger, nastier, things will come from him. The tarantallegra spell could be quite nasty. After a couple of days the body would, maybe, die a very painful and exhausted death.

- - - - - - - - - -
Mrs Brisbee - Jun 7, 2005 2:01 pm (#403 of 528)
I fully expect to see Dolohov again, after he's rescued from Ministry custody yet again by the DEs.

I guess "allegro" means "fast" in Italian, so maybe the tarantallegra is the fast spider dance?

Hermione used a wide range of spells before going down, only repeating Stupefy. Stupefy is a handy spell that almost everyone uses a lot.

Interesting that Neville was very ineffective with magic. The spells he did get off didn't work like he wanted, and the kick to his nose rendered him basically non-magical for most of the battle. In fact it is when he is NOT trying to cast spells that he is most useful. When Hermione goes down and Harry is panicking, Neville keeps his head and takes her pulse. Later he saves Harry from McNair by physically jabbing McNair in the eye.

- - - - - - - - - -
Steve Newton - Jun 7, 2005 2:04 pm (#404 of 528)
I think that Neville is building up quite a history of being cool under fire and taking action. If only his aim were a tad better. His spells seem to be powerful enough, they just don't go where he wants them to.

- - - - - - - - - -
applepie - Jun 7, 2005 2:12 pm (#405 of 528)
Could be the wand. If that was his father's wand, perhaps it was a wand of a much more powerful wizard, and not a schoolage boy? Perhaps the wand is too strong for Neville? Just a thought?

- - - - - - - - - -
Mrs Brisbee - Jun 7, 2005 2:19 pm (#406 of 528)
I think that Neville is building up quite a history of being cool under fire and taking action. --Steve Newton

I like that even without effective magic Neville was helpful. Maybe that's part of the point, that someones value can't be measured by their power. The Good Guys have valuable people on their side whose power ranges from that of Dumbledore all the way down to Mrs. Figg.

That said, I agree with you Applepie that the right wand will help Neville be more effective. I think the biggest boost will be the confidence he has gained from the DoM battle.

- - - - - - - - - -
Steve Newton - Jun 7, 2005 3:18 pm (#407 of 528)
applepie, I think it more likely that Neville is more powerful than his father was. I thought that his poor aim might be his lack of practical experience. Not his own wand would fit, now that you bring it up.

- - - - - - - - - -
Mrs Brisbee - Jun 7, 2005 4:11 pm (#408 of 528)
Harry seems to like the Petrificus Totalus spell. It takes so long to say I'm surprised it's possible to get it off successfully in battle. Diffendo--the spell that didn't work to free Ron from the Brains--is a spell for cutting things, I remember it from one of the early books but no idea which or where. I liked how Harry protects himself from the brains with Wingardium Leviosa, another simple spell learned back in book 1. One of Harry's strengths in combat is working with what he has and coming up with creative ways to use realitively simple spells, like how in GoF he made the spider drop him by using Expelliarmus.

- - - - - - - - - -
Mrs Brisbee - Jun 8, 2005 4:27 am (#409 of 528)
My notes on "Beyond the Veil":

Don’t touch things in the Department of Mysteries! Bode got addled from touching the prophecy on the shelf, and Voldemort had to come up with an elaborate scheme to get the prophecy because no one but him and Harry could touch it. Harry feels like walking through the veil, and later Sirius falls through it and is dead and gone. Ginny watches the hummingbird in the bell jar but doesn’t touch it, later a Death Eater falls in it and his head regresses to baby form. Everyone is weirded out by the brains, and Ron summons one to himself and is harmed by its thoughts. Dangerous place.

Ignorance is Dangerous Theme: I think the danger of ignorance is that it creates a vacuum that can be filled by a plausible lie. Harry’s lack of knowledge about what is going on left him open to believe that the vision he had about Sirius being tortured by Voldemort in the DoM was true. I think Harry believed the vision because he has been living in fear that Sirius would become reckless and be captured (though by the Ministry) for the past two years. Having this fear seem to turn to reality made Harry’s emotions override his ability to think clearly.

Leadership and Disillusionment: When Dumbledore arrives, Neville’s face is “transported”, and Harry thinks, “they were saved”. For them Dumbledore is a powerful symbol of hope. There is such a strong belief that Dumbledore can handle every problem, that it will be all right now that he is here.

And there is good reason for them to feel as they do. Dumbledore makes quick work of most of the remaining DEs. But Dumbledore is also human, and no human can control all the actions of everyone around him. Dumbledore can’t save Sirius (and it would be unreasonable to think he could). It is after Dumbledore arrives, and Harry thinks all is saved, that Sirius meets his end.

Obligation: Sirius had said earlier that some things are worth dying for. Six Order members came to the DoM to rescue the kids, protect the prophecy, and fight the DEs. I think Sirius was fighting for something he thought was worth dying for. After thinking about it long and hard I can’t see how Sirius could have not come to the DoM to rescue Harry. Sirius was Harry’s godfather, and it was his job to protect him and be there when needed. Sirius was reckless, and sometimes a real jerk, but he did the best he could as Harry’s godfather, and he was right where he was supposed to be when he died.

- - - - - - - - - -
Steve Newton - Jun 8, 2005 5:41 am (#410 of 528)
Don’t touch things in the Department of Mysteries! Well said!

I agree. Sirius had to come to the MOM. As far as I can tell Harry was the most important thing in his life.

Going back a ways. Did Hermione mark 3 doors with fiery crosses?

- - - - - - - - - -
Mrs Brisbee - Jun 8, 2005 6:10 am (#411 of 528)
Hermione marked the door to the Brain Room, the door to the Death Chamber, then the door that wouldn't open. So yes, three.

I think Sirius being at the DoM also made the difference between the Order holding off the DEs or failing to until Dumbledore arrived. He made it five versus eight instead of four versus eight. It was a close battle.

- - - - - - - - - -
Penny Lane. - Jun 8, 2005 12:19 pm (#412 of 528)
I read half the book last night, so I'm a little mixed up on my chapters.

Department of magic: I've been wondering about this chapter more every time I read it. Sometimes it comes off as cartoonish and funny - the bad guys keep missing, they aren't using avada kadavra, they all stop to star as Ron is attacked by the creepy brain things, and all for a prophecy?

It also raises some key issues: Why can Neville perform the spells before his nose is broken, but not after? Is being able to speak the words clearly the only way magic works? We've seen cases where other wizards perform spells/hexes/jinxes(SP?) without a sound. I also wonder what the deal was with the brains - whose were they, what was being studied on them, etc.

Beyond the Veil: As for Sirius, that was oh so sad. I wanted to stab that (censored) with Harry's wand. And when she laughed at them? Horrible, Horrible woman. I could make comparisons to some historical figures in WWII, or to some fictional villianess's in movies, but really, she seems one of a kind to me.

- - - - - - - - - -
Mrs Brisbee - Jun 8, 2005 1:17 pm (#413 of 528)
Department of magic: I've been wondering about this chapter more every time I read it. Sometimes it comes off as cartoonish and funny - the bad guys keep missing, they aren't using avada kadavra, they all stop to star as Ron is attacked by the creepy brain things, and all for a prophecy? --Penny Lane

The Bad Guys don't come across as very effective, do they? As Steve said earlier, the DEs didn't seem to have a plan. They did eventually win against the kids, though, and would have had the prophecy if not for the Orders's timely arrival.

As for why they didn't Avada Kadavra people, the only thing I can think of is it takes a good deal of concentration and power to get the spell off, and it's hard to concentrate in battle. Perhaps it's better to stick to basic spells that they know will be reliable.

They are lousy shots too, aren't they? A lot of the times they are trying to avoid hitting Harry directly because of the Prophecy, and I suspect it is also difficult to hit a moving target.

If Voldemort had gotten the prophecy, what would he made of it? We learn what Dumbledore's interpretation is later. What would it have told Voldemort? I'm going to have to contemplate this for a while.

Why can Neville perform the spells before his nose is broken, but not after? Is being able to speak the words clearly the only way magic works? We've seen cases where other wizards perform spells/hexes/jinxes(SP?) without a sound. --Penny Lane

I don't think any of the kids can do magic without speaking the words --yet. As they gain experience some of them will probably be able to do some spells without saying the incantation, but for now they need to say them correctly. Sometimes when the incantation is wrong nothing happens, and sometimes the spell goes wrong --like when Cho set Marietta's sleeve on fire when she was trying to cast Expelliarmus in the DA meetings.

Beyond the Veil: As for Sirius, that was oh so sad. I wanted to stab that (censored) with Harry's wand. And when she laughed at them? Horrible, Horrible woman. I could make comparisons to some historical figures in WWII, or to some fictional villianess's in movies, but really, she seems one of a kind to me.

Well, I admit having a terrible desire to Crucio her every time she started talking in that mock baby voice.

- - - - - - - - - -
Ticker - Jun 8, 2005 1:23 pm (#414 of 528)
Edited by Jun 8, 2005 1:30 pm
In regards to Neville's inability to get his spells to work, I agree with the right vs. wrong wand theory. First he has his dad's wand, then he has Hermione's. JKR makes a pretty big deal about Harry getting the "right" wand in SS. I wonder what a new wand will do for Neville. (I'd like to put in a plug here for one of my favorite Fan Fics that I read: "Neville Gets His New Wand" by A Is For Amy - feel free to edit this out if it's not appropriate for this thread.)

Anyway, the wand thing kind of puzzles me since we see other examples of wand sharing (Lockhart using Ron's, Tom Riddle using?/holding Harry's,... seems like I'm missing one or two more...). Sometimes it works better than others. I wonder what makes the difference. Also, Harry used his wand without holding it (Lumos - I forget where). Pronunciation & wand movement do seem to be important, especially pronunciation. Poor Neville - gotta admire him though.

I agree with you Penny that Bella is a very wicked woman. Though she is extremely powerful, she goes a little wacko when she talks of & to Voldemort (in the prophecy room when Harry tells her LV is a half blood & in the Atrium when she does an awful lot of screaming). Yet another DE who considers themselves his most loyal servant. I think her emotional instability will be her downfall.

- - - - - - - - - -
Miriam Huber - Jun 8, 2005 2:29 pm (#415 of 528)
About the DEs missing: What if those who had been in Azkaban, were thoroughly out of practice? And of course, cool as you have to be as a DE, they would never admit it. (Can you imagine Voldemort giving "remedial duelling" to his DEs? )

I have wondered if the same could apply to Sirius. He seems to underestimate Bellatrix or overestimate his capacities, otherwise he wouldn´t have teased her but concentrated on battling. Someone some posts above suggested, if I remember rightly, that it is just "in character" for him to do so. I partly agree, but when did Sirius for the last time use his wand "in earnest", not just for "scourgify" or something like that? I suppose it was before Azkaban (he had no wand in the Shrieking Shack, I believe, and afterwards he was always on the run or in hiding).

- - - - - - - - - -
lemonbalm&bees - Jun 8, 2005 10:28 pm (#416 of 528)
I think a lot of the attitude that Sirius had while dueling in the DoM ahd to do with the fact that Bellatrix is his cousin. I'm sure they've been teasing/fighting each other since they were children. Had he been fighting any other Death Eater, he might have behaved a little differently, but I sort of see him dueling with Bella as two children playing- with very dangerous toys.

- - - - - - - - - -
Mrs Brisbee - Jun 9, 2005 4:32 am (#417 of 528)
About the DEs missing: What if those who had been in Azkaban, were thoroughly out of practice? And of course, cool as you have to be as a DE, they would never admit it. (Can you imagine Voldemort giving "remedial duelling" to his DEs? ) --Miriam Huber

Lol, there's an idea! I'll have to go back and check the names of the DEs, see how many were Azkaban escapees. Bellatrix seemed competent enough fighting the Order; she even deflected a spell from Dumbledore as she fled. But I see what you mean, they would have been very rusty.

I think a lot of the attitude that Sirius had while dueling in the DoM ahd to do with the fact that Bellatrix is his cousin. --lemonbalm&bees

You might have something there. He isn't shown verbally dueling any of the other DEs.

- - - - - - - - - -
Steve Newton - Jun 9, 2005 4:21 pm (#418 of 528)
Chapter 36-The Only One He Ever Feared

Bella takes out 3 Order members and blocks one of AD's spells.

The room WAS waiting for Harry to ask for the exit.

The golden gates ring like a bell. The golden gates bother me. It seems like they should be heavenly but they are the pearly gates and I can't see how San Francisco fits.

A "score of ghostly Harry" yell "I AM, I AM, I AM!"

Harry's crucio seems to work, it just doesn't stick. Bella stops laughing and no more baby talk.

Bell says that she is the "most loyal servant." We've heard it before.

Voldemort seems to have an attention problem. He ignores Bells's important information.

The headless statue jumps in front of the spell with its arms outstretched. Could it have looked like a cross?

Statue figure actions. The goblin and the house elf go for help. The witch takes out Bella. The centaur charges Voldemort. the Wizard protects Harry.

Voldemort's killing spell starts the desk on fire. Could this be how the house at Godric's Hollow burned? Voldemort missed?

A "headless guard."

Harry and Voldemort share a body.

"As Harry's heart filled with emotions, the creature's coils loosened." Powerful emotions repelled Voldemort.

Dawlish again.

Portus magic is blue.

AD effectively preempts Fudge. Gives him orders. He is clearly in control.

- - - - - - - - - -
Mrs Brisbee - Jun 10, 2005 6:20 am (#419 of 528)
Ooo, I’m terrible, I can’t help but play Finish That Sentence with Lupin’s “He can’t come back because he’s d—“: “departed the building of life for that big parking lot in the sky”; “daisy fertilizer”; “discombobulated, permanent like”; “danced the mortal-coil shuffle”; “done snuffed it”.

From a literary standpoint, I think killing off Sirius was a good move on Rowling’s part. When I first got OotP I read the book with no notion that a major character was going to die, and was shocked (for about three seconds) when Sirius fell through the veil. I was shocked when Cedric was so coldly murdered in GoF, and I suppose his death should have prepared me for Sirius, but now I truly know that none of the characters in these stories are safe from dying, and the remaining books will have a much more dangerous feeling to them.

I got my husband hooked on Harry Potter by listening to the audio books in his hearing when working at home, and Sirius was his favorite character. When Sirius died he actually stopped listening for two whole days. He finally said to me, “At least tell me that Lucius Malfoy gets caught!” When I assured him that he would (without divulging any of the rest of the plot), he went back to listening.

Harry trying to throw himself through the veil in an attempt to save Sirius is the ultimate manifestation of his saving-people-thing. He is so caught in his emotions that he literally throws himself at death in a futile attempt pull Sirius back. Fortunately Lupin is there to rescue him.

Lupin too has suffered a terrible loss. But he stays composed, despite his obvious pain, and turns his attention to the welfare of the kids. It is an adults obligation to look after kids especially is the worst circumstances, and I think it gives Lupin some comfort too to know that the Order succeeded in saving them.

Harry wants revenge, and rushes headlong after Bellatrix with no thought of the consequences.... Well, okay, no thought at all. Letting his emotions rule him hasn't turned out well yet tonight.

I will post more later.

- - - - - - - - - -
Steve Newton - Jun 10, 2005 6:28 am (#420 of 528)
"It is an adults obligation to look after kids

Perhaps the most important rule of life.

- - - - - - - - - -
Mrs Brisbee - Jun 10, 2005 9:29 am (#421 of 528)
What obligations adults have towards children is a running theme throughout this book (along with the more general theme of the reciprocal obligations of leaders and followers). Harry spends most of the book feeling abandoned by and isolated from the adults in his life. Even when Sirius gives him some means to reach him if need be, Harry vows never to use it because he fears that it will lead to Sirius being reckless and getting caught. But when adults know he is in danger, they do rush to his and the other kids aid, willing to even lay down their lives to protect them.

Harry has also received lots of support from his friends and even acquaintances, like Ernie Macmillan publicly offering his support. Ron and Hermione put up with a lot from Harry. We should all hope for such good friends in our lives, and hope we can be as true as they to our friends. Ginny, Luna and Neville turned out to be real champions, insisting on accompanying Harry to the DoM. Because Neville and Luna felt they could trust Harry, they wanted to help, even though they didn't know the story behind Sirius Black. Last Neville and the rest of the school knew, Black was a deranged killer who had once broken into Hogwarts to try to kill Harry. Okay, it's really, really hot today and my brain has melted. I've lost track of where I was going with this...

The golden gates ring like a bell. The golden gates bother me. It seems like they should be heavenly but they are the pearly gates and I can't see how San Francisco fits. --Steve Newton

ROFL, San Francisco!? I knew "golden gates" sounded familiar, but couldn't place them!

Harry's Crucio seems to work, it just doesn't stick. Bella stops laughing and no more baby talk.

She doesn't take Harry very seriously up to that point. He manages to tag her with a spell (if he had picked Stupefy, that would have ended it), and thereafter she duels for real with him. She proves she is very good, pinning him down behind the fountain. Did the Death Eaters take the kids in the DoM very seriously? Were they all willing to kill children? Malfoy says they can kill any of them if necessary, and several of them, like Dolohov and Bellatrix, show no hesitation to harm. Perhaps this group of DEs was picked for this job because they were vicious enough to harm kids. Or maybe its a prerequisite for all DEs.

- - - - - - - - - -
valuereflection - Jun 10, 2005 10:29 am (#422 of 528)
I know everyone is discussing chapter 35 now, but please allow me to ask a question about chapter 1 that has been bothering me as I've reread through the book. Over and over Harry has been portrayed by this book as having outstanding ability in Defense Against the Dark Arts, both as a student and a teacher.

But after Harry and Dudley got safely away from the dementors, inside the house in chapter 1, Harry observed that Dudley was throwing up and that he himself was not feeling physically well (ie., his pounding headache that just kept getting worse as he talked with the Dursleys in the kitchen). I remember that after each and every experience with dementors or with patronus practice in book 3, adults gave him chocolate and emphasized its importance in recovery from the experience. WHY didn't Harry remember this basic first aid for dementors?

Not only would chocolate have greatly helped to alleviate the discomfort of Dudley and himself, but it would have clearly demonstrated for the whole family the usefulness of his magical skills. Was Harry simply thoughtless or self-absorbed?

At first I rationalized that he forgot because so much was going on and he is after all still growing up. But then after he got into his room, where he relaxed into the dark and quiet, he reflected on Dudley's reaction to the dementors -- and he STILL didn't think of suggesting chocolate for Dudley and/or himself. So then I suspected that perhaps Rowling had made a continuity error between the books.

Continually throughout this schoolyear, Harry has reminded himself and his friends of this dementor attack on Privet Drive. Not once while reviewing the memory did he realize, "Duh! I should have recommended chocolate afterwards -- thats what competent wizards do."

Now Rowling has shown Harry's horribly muddled thinking during his entire fifth year due to his impulsiveness, adolescent emotionalism and egocentrism, his personal traumatic nightmares of the graveyard, and Voldemort's shared dreams.

Was Harry's glaring oversight in the first chapter supposed to be our first clue in her story of book 5 which would show us how irrationally he was thinking?

I would appreciate hearing your opinions about this. Thanks.

- - - - - - - - - -
Mrs Brisbee - Jun 10, 2005 2:57 pm (#423 of 528)
But after Harry and Dudley got safely away from the dementors, inside the house in chapter 1, Harry observed that Dudley was throwing up and that he himself was not feeling physically well (ie., his pounding headache that just kept getting worse as he talked with the Dursleys in the kitchen). I remember that after each and every experience with dementors or with patronus practice in book 3, adults gave him chocolate and emphasized its importance in recovery from the experience. WHY didn't Harry remember this basic first aid for dementors? --valuereflection

I think we can safely rule out a future occupation as Healer for Harry

Actually, you provided a lot of good reasons in your post to answer your own question. I don't think I could come up with anything better. Harry had just received a series of nasty shocks, only one of which was the dementor attack. He also found out that his childhood baby-sitter has always been a spy for Dumbledore, that the Order was following him around without his knowledge, and then he gets kicked out of school and told Ministry officials are on there way to snap his wand. The remedy for dementor-sickness seems to have flown his mind after all that, and to tell the truth Harry has never cared much for the comfort of Dudley anyway.

- - - - - - - - - -
Choices - Jun 10, 2005 6:15 pm (#424 of 528)
Or....maybe he just isn't in the habit of carrying around great chunks of chocolate - just in case. Dudley was probably on a diet and Aunt Petunia didn't have any in the house either. I don't think Harry runs into dementors often enough to warrant carrying chocolate every where he goes. And yes, he did have a lot of "stuff" on his mind right then. It always struck me as odd that Lupin happened to have chocolate with him on the train when the dementors searched it - I finally decided he must be a "choco-holic" like me. LOL

- - - - - - - - - -
Mrs Brisbee - Jun 10, 2005 7:33 pm (#425 of 528)
Your right, Choices, it does says right at the beginning of the book that Harry had thrown away the chocolate Ron and Hermione had sent for his birthday because he was so mad at them, so Harry was chocolateless himself. (I always thought Lupin was on the train and armed with chocolate because he suspected there might be dementor trouble.)

Anyway, back to "The Only One He Ever Feared":

Harry is able to discern the difference between Voldemort’s fury and his own rage. Does strong rage make Harry’s mind open to Voldemort, as being enraged seems to be one of Voldy’s favorite hobbies? Or is it again ambivilence, as Harry is enraged at Bellatrix but finds himself unable to kill her like he intended? Harry went after her with the intention of killing her to avenge Sirius, but picks Crucio instead of Avada Kadavra, and the Crucio doesn't even work properly.

Dumbledore shows up in the nick of time. Dumbledore wasn't there to save Harry from Voldemort in GoF. He did save him from Barty Crouch, Jr. But then all of Dumbledore’s security measures failed in the beginning of OotP, and Harry had to fight off dementors on his own. This time though Dumbledore does rescue Harry. So how many times tonight has the kid with the saving-people-thing been saved? Dumbledore saves him from Voldy, Lupin saves him from throwing himself through the archway, the Order saves him and the other kids from the Death Eaters. Hermione saves him from being tortured by Umbridge, the centaurs are tricked into saving Harry and Hermione from Umbridge, Grawp unintentionally saves Harry and Hermione from the centaurs. Ron, Ginny, Luna, and Neville manage to save themselves from the Inquisitorial Squad and set out to save Harry and Hermione from the Forbidden Forest. Did I miss any?

AD effectively preempts Fudge. Gives him orders. He is clearly in control. --Steve Newton

It truly amazes me how much is totally messed up in this book, and how much of it is fixed in the last few chapters. By the end of this chapter Voldemort has exposed himself to numerous witnesses at the MoM, forcing them to admit he has returned; Nine of his Death Eaters have been captured; Dumbledore is clearly back in charge; Umbridge will be removed as headmistress; the Ministry will stop hunting for Hagrid so he can return to Hogwarts; Harry and the other kids are alive and safe. The price for all this was Sirius's life, and I think Sirius would agree that it was a price worth paying.

- - - - - - - - - -
Choices - Jun 11, 2005 8:43 am (#426 of 528)
Definitely some things are worth dying for....!!!

- - - - - - - - - -
Cassiopeia - Jun 13, 2005 11:45 am (#427 of 528)
Hello, I'm joining in here kind of late, but I've been reading your posts along with my book and I've caught up with you all (with only 2 chapters left, oh well)! Just a couple of comments from earlier in the book... Did anyone else catch this back in Ch 6, The Noble and Most Ancient House of Black: as they were cleaning, an "unpleasant-looking silver instrument... scuttled up Harry's arm like a spider..." and Sirius smashed it with a book entitled Nature's Nobility: A Wizarding Genealogy. I found this to be rather curious, given the title of Book 6...

Ch 29, Career Advice: My take on why Harry got choked up about the Easter egg was that it had snitches all over it, not to mention that Ginny delivered it straight from Quidditch practice & told him how bad they're doing. He misses Quidditch!

Ch 34, DOM: The fiery crosses on the doors...I pictured these as not so much crosses, but as X's.

The bell jar with the egg and the hummingbird - this HAS to mean something! Especially when the DE fell into it. And then, in Ch 35, Beyond the Veil, Hermione watches DE and says, "'It's time,' said Hermione in an awestruck voice. 'Time...'" This has been bothering me since the first time I read this book! She's figured something out, but what exactly? Is she just saying that time is one of the things that DOM studies, or does she mean something more significant? Like time travel plays a large role in this whole series? Does this hint at the Recurring Boy Who Lived theory?

Sorry this was so long, but now I'm caught up!

- - - - - - - - - -
Mrs Brisbee - Jun 13, 2005 1:27 pm (#428 of 528)
Welcome aboard, Cassiopeia!

Ch 34, DOM: The fiery crosses on the doors...I pictured these as not so much crosses, but as X's.

My mind automatically translated the crosses into X's, because fiery crosses have such an unpleasant (to put it mildly) connotation for us Americans. The swastika used to be a perfectly good symbol too until the nazis ruined it. I remember my sister had a very old copy of The Jungle Book from before World War II, and it was strange to see swastikas emblazoned on the cover. I think someone somewhere on this forum once explained that fiery brands were used in old Scotland to summon the clans or something (I'm sure I'm garbling the explanation), so fiery crosses don't have the same bad connotation there.

The bell jar with the egg and the hummingbird - this HAS to mean something! Especially when the DE fell into it. And then, in Ch 35, Beyond the Veil, Hermione watches DE and says, "'It's time,' said Hermione in an awestruck voice. 'Time...'" This has been bothering me since the first time I read this book! She's figured something out, but what exactly? Is she just saying that time is one of the things that DOM studies, or does she mean something more significant? Like time travel plays a large role in this whole series? Does this hint at the Recurring Boy Who Lived theory?

Time is such an extreme plot device to introduce, and then just abandon, so I agree that it just has to pop up again in later books. I'm not wild about time travel stories, though, so I won't cry if I'm wrong. I don't think it will be a major part of the plot, maybe something like someone tries to change time and it all goes horribly wrong. Fortunately Neville smashed all the Time Turners in the DoM, which will significantly decrease the chance of time travel. That pesky bell jar survives though, and there must be a few Time Turners that were out of the DoM at the time.

I think Hermione's reaction must be because she figured out what the DoM harnessed to power the Time Turners --raw Time. It might be even be more mind boggling for a smart Muggle when they realize that than for anyone else.

- - - - - - - - - -
Steve Newton - Jun 13, 2005 5:39 pm (#429 of 528)
Chapter 37-The Lost Prophecy

AD looks directly at Harry.

How does AD know how Harry is feeling?

Poor Phineas. Will he order Kreacher to harm himself?

There are many people Harry would go to any lengths to rescue-Ron, Hermione, Lupin, Ginny, probably many of the DA members, Hagrid, Mcgonagall.

Did AD teach Lily the ancient magic? Is it a part of a witch?

Heart saved Harry.

From American Heritage Dictionary online:

3a. The vital center and source of one's being, emotions, and sensibilities. b. The repository of one's deepest and sincerest feelings and beliefs: an appeal from the heart; a subject dear to her heart. c. The seat of the intellect or imagination: the worst atrocities the human heart could devise. 4a. Emotional constitution, basic disposition, or character: a man after my own heart. b. One's prevailing mood or current inclination: We were light of heart. 5a. Capacity for sympathy or generosity; compassion: a leader who seems to have no heart. b. Love; affection: The child won my heart. 6a. Courage; resolution; fortitude: The soldiers lost heart and retreated. b. The firmness of will or the callousness required to carry out an unpleasant task or responsibility: hadn't the heart to send them away without food. 7. A person esteemed or admired as lovable, loyal, or courageous: a dear heart.

There's more but enough of this applies to make the word hard to pin down here. (Sorry for the length.)

I'm not sure that Harry can now be taken over by Voldemort.

Back to last chapter a bit. Dumbledore calls Voldemort Tom. Someone, somewhere on the Forum, pointed out that in SS Dumbledore tells Harry to name things correctly and to say Voldemort. Is it possible that 'Voldemort' is now just Tom?

I agree with folks above that Time will come back. No idea how.

- - - - - - - - - -
Mrs Brisbee - Jun 14, 2005 6:44 am (#430 of 528)
Dumbledore: “The fact that you can feel pain like this is your greatest strength…”, “Suffering like this proves you are still a man…” "You care so much that you feel as though you will bleed to death with the pain of it."

Harry definitely places his care for others above his own welfare. Voldemort never, ever would think of anyone else before himself. I agree that Voldemort will have difficulty in taking Harry over in the future, as Harry has and knows what repels him.

Dumbledore calls Harry a "man". Acknowledging that Harry has grown, and that Dumbledore needs to start treating him like someone who can shoulder his burdens.

When Harry first arrives in the office, one of the portraits says: "Dumbledore thinks very highly of you, as I'm sure you know.... Oh yes, holds you in great esteem." I don't think Harry did know that Dumbledore would think of him in such a way.

Dumbledore: "I guessed, fifteen years ago... when I saw the scar upon your forehead, what it might mean. I guessed that it might be the sign of a connection forged between you and Voldemort." This is one of the many things Dumbledore doesn't explain, how he could guess the nature of the scar when no one else did. Not even Voldemort guessed the connection existed until the attack on Arthur.

I thought Dumbledore's reasoning for keeping Harry in the dark was a little odd. There must be something in the history between himself and Tom that he is leaving out. Dumbledore was afraid Voldy would possess Harry and use Harry as a tool against him. But then he says that Voldy's aim would have been to try to sucker Dumbledore into killing Harry.

Dumbledore: "Indifference and neglect often do much more damage than outright dislike..." Harry has felt neglected by Dumbledore all year, and it hasn't done him any good.

It takes Harry a while to get to the thing that has been really, really, really bothering him:

"You made him stay shut up in that house and he hated it, that's why he wanted to get out last night--"

"I was trying to keep Sirius alive," said Dumbledore quietly.

"People don't like being locked up!" Harry said furiously, rounding on him. "you did it to me all last summer--"

Finally we reach the crux of the matter, the misunderstanding between Harry and Dumbledore. Dumbledore is trying to keep Harry alive, but Harry is bitter about how he is forced to stay with the Dursleys, not just for that summer, but for most of his life so far, without it ever being explained why. Lack of information has led to this serious breakdown of trust.

- - - - - - - - - -
Steve Newton - Jun 14, 2005 11:10 am (#431 of 528)
Mrs. B, I think that AD calling Harry a man is one of the turning points of the series.

- - - - - - - - - -
Mrs Brisbee - Jun 14, 2005 7:18 pm (#432 of 528)
Yes, I expect that Harry and Dumbledore's relationship will be very much changed in the next book. Dumbledore admitted all the mistakes he has made in looking after Harry over the years. I think Dumbledore is now prepared to take on the role for which he is needed-- a mentor to train Harry for his approaching battle with Voldemort. Dumbledore has finally recognized that he can't be a good guardian for Harry because his role as general demands he treat Harry as "the weapon", and he can't be a good general if he allows his love for Harry to override the welfare of the rest of the Wizarding World. He had to give up one of those roles.

- - - - - - - - - -
Cassiopeia - Jun 15, 2005 5:32 am (#433 of 528)
In addition to what Steve and Mrs. B already commented on, I was also wondering:

How exactly does Dumbledore watch Harry? Dumbledore says he watched him as he "... found Sirius, learned what he was and rescued him..." Was he in the Shrieking Shack with them or could he see into it somehow?

Is there a significance to JK's choice of words here, p. 839 US hardcover, "Voldemort tried to kill you when you were a child because of a prophecy... This is the weapon he has been seeking so assiduously since his return: the knowledge of how to destroy you." (italics mine) Is there a difference between kill and destroy and vanquish, which is in the prophecy itself?

- - - - - - - - - -
Cassiopeia - Jun 15, 2005 5:40 am (#434 of 528)
The golden gates ring like a bell. The golden gates bother me. It seems like they should be heavenly but they are the pearly gates and I can't see how San Francisco fits. - Steve

I got it!! Voldemort has no heart because he left it in San Francisco!

Sorry...(ducks dungbombs)

- - - - - - - - - -
Steve Newton - Jun 15, 2005 5:44 am (#435 of 528)
Wow! Its so obvious when you see the answer!

- - - - - - - - - -
Mrs Brisbee - Jun 15, 2005 6:51 am (#436 of 528)
Oh, Cassiopeia, that was too funny! Good thing I decided to read posts before I made coffee, or my keyboard would be drenched.

How exactly does Dumbledore watch Harry? Dumbledore says he watched him as he "... found Sirius, learned what he was and rescued him..." Was he in the Shrieking Shack with them or could he see into it somehow? --Cassiopeia

I took it to mean he has actually been concerning himself with what Harry is up to even when Harry doesn't think Dumbledore has been paying much attention, if that makes sense. It would be a bit creepy if Dumbledore had the wizard equivalent of a spy camera following Harry around, so I think he gathers information via portraits, ghosts, and people mostly. I think Choices had the theory that his watch was something like Molly's clock, possible tracking Harry's general well-being and whereabouts. There often is major gaps in Dumbledore's knowledge about where Harry is and what he is up to, so however he spies on him, it is not all encompassing. Which I realize doesn't really answer your question, but after typing all this I can't see erasing it.

Is there a significance to JK's choice of words here, p. 839 US hardcover, "Voldemort tried to kill you when you were a child because of a prophecy... This is the weapon he has been seeking so assiduously since his return: the knowledge of how to destroy you." (italics mine) Is there a difference between kill and destroy and vanquish, which is in the prophecy itself?

This has probably been discussed on the Prophecy thread extensively. I think there is a difference: kill makes you dead, but we have seen already the power of those who die doesn't necessarily cease once they are gone. Lily's love protected Harry from Voldemort. James provided Harry with strength and protection too against the dementors. Someone killed would still leave a legacy that can have impact on those who still live. To destroy would be to eliminate the person and their legacy. Vanquish needn't mean the person must die, but their power would be neutralized.

So, if Voldemort was seeking the power of how to destroy Harry, what knowledge would he have gotten from the prophecy? Keeping the prophecy from Voldemort was a wise move, because as long as it existed and he didn't know its contents, he was leery of trying another attempt on Harry's life. It bought Harry a year free of attempted murders (initiated by Voldy, anyway). Once it smashed Voldemort didn't waste time returning to his kill-Harry-Potter thing. I wonder what he would have made of the wording of the prophecy? I suspect he might have decided that "die by the hand of the other" needed to be taken literally, since his and Harry's struggle at the end of SS/PS almost ended with Harry's death, but his magical duel with Harry in GoF was a disaster for him. Only 31 more days til HBP!

Re: the idea that was put forward that the DEs who escaped Azkaban were out of practice when it came to dueling, leading to their poor performance in the DoM, I've counted up the DEs who were there and six were definitely Azkaban escapees: the three Lestranges, Dolohov, Rookwood, and Mulciber. Five weren't: Lucius Malfoy, Crabbe, Avery, Nott, Macnair. I've no idea who Jugson is. I'm also embarrassed to say I thought there were only 10 DEs until I took the time to count them. So Sirius coming to the DoM made it 5 vs. 10 as opposed to 4 vs. 10.

Edit: It just occurred to me that using the above definitions of kill/destroy/vanquish could explain Dumbledore's comment in "The Only One He Ever Feared": "Merely taking you life would not satisfy me, I admit--"

- - - - - - - - - -
Steve Newton - Jun 16, 2005 6:02 am (#437 of 528)
Chapter 38-The Second War Begins

In the Daily Prophet article the Ministry did not say that Voldemort had been seen in the MOM.

"Said Ron darkly." Why darkly? A response to the brain incident?

Pomfrey says "To be going on with." Dumbledore's last words in the previous chapter.

Hermione still doesn't seem to have a lot of respect for Luna's views.

Flitwick must be a powerful wizard. The swamp is gone in 3 seconds.

I wonder what deal Dumbledore made with the centaurs to get DJU back.

There is a lot of death imagery around Harry. "Harry stopped dead." "You're dead Potter."

Harry is, obviously, out of Draco's league.

Snape seems truly happy to see Mcgonagall back.

Is 240 rubies a good total?

"An invisible barrier separated him from the rest of the world." This seems to be a reminder of the zoo image from books 1 and 2. (The end of chapter 2 in COS.) He is on display but also 2 separated worlds.

"A marked man."

No "great sense of fear."

"He felt as distant from them as though he belonged to a different race."

Ron and Hermione are completely cured.

Mcgonagall now needs a walking stick. (Her cat form won't, will it?)

Where is Sirius' mirror?

Nick was afraid of death.

"Gone on where?" Similar to earlier phrases spoken by Pomfrey and Dumbledore.

On the train the DA members "rose as one." Hufflepuff and Ravenclaw houses work together.

Members of Gryffindor, Hufflepuff and Ravenclaw together put the miscreants in the luggage rack.

"Cho was passing, accompanied by Marietta Edgecombe, who was wearing a balaclava. His and Cho's eyes met for a moment. Cho blushed and kept walking. Harry looked back down at the chessboard just in time to see one of his pawns chased off its square by Ron's knight." Cho is the pawn? Ron said in SS, "I will be a knight." Harry was the bishop and Hermione was a castle. Who is playing the game???? Watch the chess games.

Do all of the Weasleys now have something dragon?

"I expect that what you're unaware of would fill several books." Great line and true of us all.

Pink hair bothers Petunia.

Harry leads the Dursleys away from the platform.

Sorry for the length. I think that this is an important chapter.

- - - - - - - - - -
Mrs Brisbee - Jun 16, 2005 12:33 pm (#438 of 528)
Edited Jun 16, 2005 1:25 pm
Good notes again, Steve. I think I'll reply to them, and look over my notes later for anything not mentioned.

In the Daily Prophet article the Ministry did not say that Voldemort had been seen in the MOM.

Good catch. The Prophet did report that it was the rumored story though. The Ministry does ask the community for vigilance, and guides on defense will be sent to all wizarding homes. The government is finally acting in the best interest of its citizens.

Pomfrey says "To be going on with." Dumbledore's last words in the previous chapter.

This bothered me when I read the book the first time, and it still does. Is it supposed to mean something important, or is it just sloppy editing? I notice that Rowling uses repetitive phrasing in a few of her chapters, like “Beyond The Veil”, where the phrase “out of nowhere” is overused.

Hermione still doesn't seem to have a lot of respect for Luna's views.

But Hermione is now being nice to her instead of muttering snide remarks whenever Luna says something outlandish, so there is an improvement. And the DoM6are all hanging out together in the hospital wing.

Snape seems truly happy to see McGonagall back.

Snape and McGonagall do seem to like each other. That’s the one thing that makes me sure Snape is really on the Good Guys side. I value McGonagall’s opinions.

Is 240 rubies a good total?

It won’t win Gryffindor the House Cup, if there is even a handing out of the Cup this year. But here McGonagall deftly steps between Harry and Snape, Crabbe, Goyle, and Malfoy. I noticed she sends Crabbe and Goyle away before awarding the points to the DoM6. That show was for Snape and Malfoy.

"A marked man."

Harry referring to himself as a man, just as Dumbledore did.

On the train the DA members "rose as one." Hufflepuff and Ravenclaw houses work together.

Members of Gryffindor, Hufflepuff and Ravenclaw together put the miscreants in the luggage rack.

Not only do they work together, but they save Harry from an ambush (Harry is rescued yet again). Dumbledore’s Army (or is it Potter’s Army?) is a real success.

"Cho was passing, accompanied by Marietta Edgecombe, who was wearing a balaclava. His and Cho's eyes met for a moment. Cho blushed and kept walking. Harry looked back down at the chessboard just in time to see one of his pawns chased off its square by Ron's knight." Cho is the pawn? Ron said in SS, "I will be a knight." Harry was the bishop and Hermione was a castle. Who is playing the game???? Watch the chess games.

Cho must be the pawn. A pawn that makes it all the way across the board may be promoted to queen, but this pawn gets eliminated by Ron’s knight, and then Ron advances his queen against Harry’s rook. I’m not a ‘shipper, but it looks like Ron’s queen is Ginny, who he obviously wants to hook up with Harry. Does this mean that in future chess games the queen will always represent Ginny? Next time I read the books I am going to pay more attention to the chess games.

Harry leads the Dursleys away from the platform.

Symbolism that Harry is now a leader.

- - - - - - - - - -
Mrs Brisbee - Jun 16, 2005 6:46 pm (#439 of 528)
Since this is the last chapter, I think I’ll go over some of the major themes of the book and see where they have ended up. My apologies if some of this is redundant to what has already been posted, but mostly this is meant to be a recap anyway.

The obligation of a government to its citizens: We finally see the Ministry try to fulfill its obligation, not only by giving its citizens the knowledge they need but also by giving them the guidance on how to use it. Some people write in hysterical letters to the Daily Prophet about seeing Voldemort on the street, yadda yadda yadda, but that’s to be expected. It is the governments job to curb possible panic with useful information and policies. Leaving the citizens in ignorance of the real situation was far more dangerous.

The obligation of adults to children: the very end of this book is my all time favorite scene in any of the books, because finally the adults in Harry’s life are there for him, doing what they are supposed to do. Harry had the threat of Sirius to use as protection from the Dursleys when Sirius was alive, but it was more a bluff than anything else, because it would have been too dangerous for Sirius to go to Privet Drive (even if Dumbledore would have let him). Now though the adults help deal with the problem instead of leaving Harry to deal with it alone.

The obligation of teachers to their students: Dolores Umbridge was a total failure in upholding her obligations. Instead, she creates her own mini despotic regime, starting with her classroom and slowing expanding to swallow Hogwarts. She actively seeks to limit knowledge and squelch thinking. Students can’t ask questions. They’re not allowed to do magic. She’s like the Dursleys taking over Hogwarts. Because she has failed to meet her obligations as a teacher, the students start to question why they should meet their obligations toward their teacher. It begins with the formation of the DA to secretly learn Defense Against the Dark Arts, and as the story progresses she often contends with open rebellion.

Disillusionment and coming of age: Harry started out being shocked at discovering that the adults he looked up to were mere imperfect humans. He was especially angry about Dumbledore, and miserable about his father. We saw him start to come to terms with the fifteen year old James. I think Dumbledore talking to Harry and explaining why he did what he did, and shouldering the blame for all his bad decisions has helped as well. Adults make mistakes, and take responsibility for their mistakes. Harry himself has made terrible mistakes, but he hasn’t completely dealt with them yet. He has also been given an incredible burden: the fate of the Wizarding World. Harry now understands what it is to be an adult, and he is well on his way there, but he still needs help and guidance to make it.

Ignorance is dangerous: Well, the Wizarding World has been rescued from the ignorance of not knowing Voldemort is back. Hogwarts has been rescued from Umbridge’s regime of ignorance by her removal from the school. Only one year of damage there. Imagine what would have happened if she had remained for years to come, and managed to turn out a whole generation of ignorant students. Harry is rescued from his ignorance of why Voldemort wants him dead and what his future role in the struggle against Voldemort will be. Better late than never.

I haven't covered friendship and trust, but this is long so I'll just leave it here. **wanders off humming I get by with a little help from my friends**

- - - - - - - - - -
pottermom34 - Jun 16, 2005 8:38 pm (#440 of 528)
excellent recap and summary Mrs. B and Steve Newton. You did however leave out a couple of quotes that are I think anyway important tie ins to HBP. Forgive me for not telling them but they all say just about the same thing. Mrs. Weasley, Ron and Hermione all told Harry they'd see him really soon. I think these lead up to Harry's "shortest stay at Privet Dr. ever." What does anyone else think.

- - - - - - - - - -
Steve Newton - Jun 17, 2005 5:50 am (#441 of 528)
Yes, I think that you are right. It sounds as if they have something planned. If I get time I'll go back and check to see if they hint at what they have planned.

- - - - - - - - - -
Mrs Brisbee - Jun 17, 2005 7:07 am (#442 of 528)
Mrs. Weasley, Ron and Hermione all told Harry they'd see him really soon. I think these lead up to Harry's "shortest stay at Privet Dr. ever." What does anyone else think. --Pottermom

I think you are right, because another thing that was stressed repeatedly in OotP was the importance of promises. Didn't they keep promising something similar at the end of GoF and beginning of OotP, but left Harry at the Dursleys with no idea when he would leave? A lot of things are fixed at the end of this book, and I am certain that this time they will get Harry out of 4 Privet Drive quickly.

- - - - - - - - - -
Cassiopeia - Jun 17, 2005 12:39 pm (#443 of 528)
I took it to mean he has actually been concerning himself with what Harry is up to even when Harry doesn't think Dumbledore has been paying much attention, if that makes sense. It would be a bit creepy if Dumbledore had the wizard equivalent of a spy camera following Harry around, so I think he gathers information via portraits, ghosts, and people mostly. I think Choices had the theory that his watch was something like Molly's clock, possible tracking Harry's general well-being and whereabouts. There often is major gaps in Dumbledore's knowledge about where Harry is and what he is up to, so however he spies on him, it is not all encompassing.

Yes, this makes more sense.

Steve mentioned watching the chess games. I would like to go back and re-read those scenes, but can't find them in a quick skim-through. Is there somewhere I can find this information (where to find them in each book)? Thanks...

The end of OotP always leaves me feeling rather melancholy for a few days. <sigh>

- - - - - - - - - -
Mrs Brisbee - Jun 17, 2005 4:39 pm (#444 of 528)
The chess games in OotP are in "Occlumency" right at the beginning of the chapter, "O.W.L.S" not sure exactly where, and "The Second War Begins" when they are on the train. I want to go over the chess games in all the books too, but a quick perusal of essays on the Lexicon doesn't show any on chess games. **sigh** guess it's the old fashioned way, by reading all the books.

- - - - - - - - - -
Cassiopeia - Jun 17, 2005 5:14 pm (#445 of 528)
Oh well...thanks anyway!

- - - - - - - - - -
Steve Newton - Jun 17, 2005 6:13 pm (#446 of 528)
I'm going to reread all of the books before THE BIG DAY. I'll try to keep track of the chess games. Some other things, too.

- - - - - - - - - -
Mrs Brisbee - Jun 17, 2005 6:31 pm (#447 of 528)
I'd love it if you post your chess game findings, Steve. Not sure what thread would be appropriate, you might have to start a new one.

Finishing the OotP read-along sort of leaves me in a warm fuzzy place that might last until HBP.

- - - - - - - - - -
Steve Newton - Jun 17, 2005 6:54 pm (#448 of 528)
Yes, I'm sad that it has ended. I learned a lot. Thanks everyone.

Perhaps another book?

I'll try to post my chess stuff somewhere.

- - - - - - - - - -
Mrs Brisbee - Jun 18, 2005 6:36 am (#449 of 528)
I'd love to do another book, BUT.... We would have to read at break neck speed to finish before HBP comes out, and if the speed we went through OotP is any indication, I don't think we can. I noticed that the SS/PS and CoS read along threads were abandoned in the middle, and I wouldn't want to have to leave a new half finished thread.

This was my first read along, and it was so much fun. Thanks to everyone. I would love to do all the books at some point.

Edit: I wonder if we could do a focused discussion, like chess games in the books and how they relate to the plots, or would that be so narrow it is considered off topic?

- - - - - - - - - -
Penny Lane. - Jun 18, 2005 7:17 am (#450 of 528)
There was a thread on the chess game in PS/SS, but I think it was auto-deleted awhile ago.

I'd also like to do another book at some point, but I don't know if we would have time before July 16 to finish any of them in a read along.

[Julia H.]

Harry Potter and the Order of the Phoenix Book Read Along (Posts 451-500)


Steve Newton - Jun 18, 2005 12:02 pm (#451 of 528)
I probably won't get to SS until sometime next week. I have 2 other books to finish first. If I have enough stuff I will start a chess thread. About all of the games if possible.

This is not to say you shouldn't start a thread before I get there.

- - - - - - - - - -
pottermom34 - Jun 18, 2005 9:31 pm (#452 of 528)
Are there enough chess scenes to tide us over til HBP? Then we can do a read a long with HBP. I'm currently reading The Silmarillion, and then The Hobbit to fill the time til HBP comes but I'm afraid I read Silmarillion too fast. I'm going to have time left.

- - - - - - - - - -
Ticker - Jun 19, 2005 4:17 pm (#453 of 528)
Do we get to have a HBP read along?

- - - - - - - - - -
Penny Lane. - Jun 20, 2005 5:32 am (#454 of 528)
We can. The Hosts have not yet decided on the policy regarding HBP posts (or they have, and just aren't sharing ). If we can't have a read along immediately after the release, we can do one shortly afterwards. I think it could be fun.

- - - - - - - - - -
pottermom34 - Jun 20, 2005 7:08 am (#455 of 528)
I agree it would be fun just to see who was right and wrong in their ideas.

- - - - - - - - - -
Steve Newton - Jun 20, 2005 7:30 am (#456 of 528)
I'm up for it. I'm glad that you said ideas and not theories. The word 'theory' is grossly misused on the Forum.

I'm pretty sure that I don't have any developed theories but I have loads of ideas and speculations.

I was going to list some of them but since I'm at work, was up late last night, and they would take some time and concentration, I'll let it pass for now.

- - - - - - - - - -
Mrs. Sirius - Jun 30, 2005 10:14 pm (#457 of 528)
I have not posted on the read along for sometime but have really enjoyed reading your observations and insights and most importantly, admire your perseverance. I finished reading OoTP before the read along did but could not post as it got really crazy, I was reading it in 2 languages and 2 different speeds (one with my son the other to myself).

I look forward to a read along of HBP either on the first read or on a later read.

- - - - - - - - - -
Marie E. - Jul 2, 2005 9:39 pm (#458 of 528)
Sorry to post so out of synch, but I just reread OoP and noticed something. When the DA were leaving the Room of Requirement Harry was using the Map to let the kids know when they can leave safely. Does this mean that all the DA know about the Map?

- - - - - - - - - -
Mrs Brisbee - Jul 3, 2005 7:27 am (#459 of 528)
Marie E., I would say that yes, that means the DA knows about the map. The group of people Harry knows he can trust expanded tremendously in OotP, and Harry is finding more serious uses for the map than the Marauders or Fred and George ever did.

- - - - - - - - - -
scoop2172000 - Jul 6, 2005 8:14 am (#460 of 528)
Hi gang: I haven't posted in a while. It's good to be back.

I agree the DA knows about the Marauders Map.

If Harry trusts the members well enough to engage in rule-breaking activity that could get them all, himself included, expelled, then he's able to trust them with knowledge of his tools for rule-breaking.

Well, at least one tool for rule-breaking (i.e the Map). I wonder if he's told the DA he has an invisibility cloak and whether he's told them about the effectiveness of Polyjuice Potion.

Shifting gears here: I agree we should have a read-along for HBP. I think that as a requirement, those posting should have finished reading the whole book first. That way, we wouldn't have to worry about spoilers, nor would there be a problem with people posting theories about early chapters involving events put into proper context in later chapters.

- - - - - - - - - -
Steve Newton - Jul 6, 2005 9:02 am (#461 of 528)
While the DA knows that Harry has something I'm not certain that they know all of its powers. I'll have to reread to see what clues that I can find.

- - - - - - - - - -
Mrs Brisbee - Jul 7, 2005 12:35 pm (#462 of 528)
I doubt I'll be in on the first HBP read along, as there will be people who will finish the book in mere hours, and it will likely take me a week to finish it. But I'd like to do a read along at some point.

I wonder if there is a better way to arrange the Read Along folder. Maybe each book could have it's own permanent thread.

- - - - - - - - - -
zelmia - Jul 8, 2005 7:53 am (#463 of 528)
I think they did that in the past. But the problem is that the discussion comes to a complete stop after a few chapters, I think because there are too many discussions going on simultaneously. It seems people have a harder time with that.
Personally, I think this Thread is best way to do it because the Forum Members drive the discussion by choosing the Topic themselves.
I would suggest that for HBP we keep the discussion limited to each chapter for a certain number of days (maybe 3 days for each chapter?). It might allow people with less time to read to maintain participation in the discussion without jumping so far ahead that all of the Spoilers are revealed too early.

- - - - - - - - - -
Steve Newton - Jul 8, 2005 8:02 am (#464 of 528)
A chapter every three days sounds good. Even people who don't get the book until late would not have to worry about too many spoilers.

- - - - - - - - - -
Mrs Brisbee - Jul 8, 2005 11:45 am (#465 of 528)
The last read along was my first, so I bow to others superior knowledge of what works best.

Should we ask for a new thread, so people can easily find the beginning, or does that matter?

A chapter every three days worked well for me when we were doing OotP, and I could join in and play catch-up around chapter 3 then. What does everyone else think? Too fast, too slow?

- - - - - - - - - -
Penny Lane. - Jul 8, 2005 4:52 pm (#466 of 528)
THe mods still haven't told us if they are shutting down the forum completely for several day after the release, or if we will be restricted to one or two threads. Maybe we should just hold off on making any definate plans until then.

- - - - - - - - - -
scoop2172000 - Jul 11, 2005 9:59 am (#467 of 528)
How about a Chamber of Secrets read-along taking HBP into account?

After all, Jo has told us COS contains important clues. Personally, I plan to re-read COS as soon as I'm done with HBP.

- - - - - - - - - -
Mrs Brisbee - Aug 1, 2005 5:17 pm (#468 of 528)
I realize there is a whole folder devoted to HBP discussion, but I'd still like to do a read along. This is the first of the books since CoS that I haven't wanted to immediately pick up and start again, but I'd do it if it were a read along. I liked doing the chapters in chronological order, and discussing them.

- - - - - - - - - -
Steve Newton - Aug 2, 2005 6:57 am (#469 of 528)
I'd be up for it. I am doing my first reread and will get the cds from the library soon.

- - - - - - - - - -
Mrs Brisbee - Aug 3, 2005 7:31 pm (#470 of 528)
Well, that's two then. Anyone else interested?

- - - - - - - - - -
Ponine - Aug 3, 2005 7:56 pm (#471 of 528)
Yes!! I know I was horrible company last time, but I would very much be interested. I do however move from one continent to another in about fourteen days, so I might be a tad disorganized for a week or three... I am planning on buying the US books in paperback, just to compare with my UK ones...

- - - - - - - - - -
Mrs. Sirius - Aug 3, 2005 10:24 pm (#472 of 528)
Ponine, he he he, we do that in reverse, order the British editions to compare. The advantage to the American editions is that they come in a slightly larger and easier to read type. Also each chapter comes with a Mary Grandpre's drawing.

On two read alongs, I have started with the group and then faded from posting but I kept up with reading others' posts. I am interested in a read along.

- - - - - - - - - -
Mrs Brisbee - Aug 4, 2005 7:06 am (#473 of 528)
Excellent!

Before we were doing a chapter about every three days. The advantage of this is it gives everyone time to post their thoughts, and respond to what others have posted on a chapter before we move on to the next. It also means if you are doing an intercontinental move (like Ponine) or have a week-long trip planned (like me) you can still play catch-up without having missed half the book.

The disadvantage might be that the snail's pace is too slow and people lose interest.

So how quickly do you all feel the pace should be?

- - - - - - - - - -
haymoni - Aug 4, 2005 7:25 am (#474 of 528)
Is anybody interested in doing this for GOF with the movie coming out?

- - - - - - - - - -
Ponine - Aug 4, 2005 6:28 pm (#475 of 528)
I am always up for rereads, particularly with what we know now about the horcruxes, and Jo's statement;

...Dumbledore has given him some pretty valuable clues and Harry, also, in the course of previous six books has amassed more knowledge than he realizes....at least one of the Horcruxes will have been correctly identified by careful re-readers of the books...

Sounds like a challenge to me, Jo!

- - - - - - - - - -
Mrs Brisbee - Aug 7, 2005 7:31 am (#476 of 528)
I was waiting for a few days to see what everyone said about haymoni's suggestion to read GoF (instead of HBP? or did I misunderstand you?). I can't do a read along of any of the other books until I can get myself to slog through HBP a second time. I can't trust my memory on the details with only one read. However, there is an entire HBP folder to which I can haul my HBP problem, so this thread can remain free for other books.

- - - - - - - - - -
Mrs. Sirius - Aug 7, 2005 11:14 pm (#477 of 528)
Like you Mr Brisbee, I rather slog through HBP on a read-long right now. I need to talk about it and my husband is only just started it and none of my friend are quite as obsessed as I am.

- - - - - - - - - -
Mrs Brisbee - Aug 9, 2005 12:10 pm (#478 of 528)
Okay, since no one else has weighed in-- let's do HBP. Like Mrs. Serious, I need to talk about it, and also get the details etched in my mind so I know what the heck I'm talking about when posting on other threads, but I'll need help getting through HBP again.

I'm going to read chapter 1 tonight, and hopefully post my notes tomorrow morning. We can try to do a new chapter every couple of days so as to be a bit speedier than we were for OotP but still leave time for people to respond to others' posts.

- - - - - - - - - -
Steve Newton - Aug 9, 2005 12:37 pm (#479 of 528)
Sounds good. Will you start a new thread or just continue from here?

- - - - - - - - - -
Mrs Brisbee - Aug 9, 2005 2:48 pm (#480 of 528)
I started a new thread, we'll see if the hosts approve it. I thought leaving this thread open would be a good idea so people can use it to discuss what read alongs they would like to do, and when, and rally their cohorts.

Also, it will be a lot easier for those interested to find the beginning of the HBP read along in a new thread.

I'll probably post my notes tonight, or tomorrow if I've used up all my posts for the day. I've lost track of how many I've done so far....

- - - - - - - - - -
Mrs Brisbee - Aug 10, 2005 4:29 am (#481 of 528)
Well, I guess it's a no go. The hosts say the discussion folder is for read alongs, so we would have to do it there. I wanted to do a chronological read along with a group who would literally, if not figuratively, be on the same page. We could still do it in the discussion folder, although logistically it will be more difficult.

- - - - - - - - - -
Mrs. Sirius - Aug 10, 2005 5:36 am (#482 of 528)
Could it be contiuned as part of this thread?

- - - - - - - - - -
Steve Newton - Aug 10, 2005 6:06 am (#483 of 528)
Here sounds good to me. It fits the name of the thread and is more focused than the HBP discussiions.

- - - - - - - - - -
Steve Newton - Aug 10, 2005 11:50 am (#484 of 528)
Are we going to discuss HBP or go the the discussion threads? I'm ready with my totally nondescript observations for chapter 1, The Other Minister. TOM, uhoh.

- - - - - - - - - -
Mrs Brisbee - Aug 10, 2005 1:01 pm (#485 of 528)
I went up to the Questions For The Host(s) thread to ask them to reconsider, but Ponine beat me to it. I thought I would wait for the response. I suppose I should post up there why I think a chronological structure would work better for us than the chapter discussion folder, but I've got to run out for a while.

- - - - - - - - - -
Ponine - Aug 10, 2005 3:06 pm (#486 of 528)
I wanted to do the same, Mrs Brisbee, but I could not for the life of me collect my thoughts and excellent arguments for one coherent thread and merely resigned to beg... I honestly do think that for our purposes, regarding fluency, overview and structure, it is better to collectively discuss chapter by chapter, rather than bouncing between thirtysome threads, and also more than likely interrupt the ongoing discussions there...?! Or am I being fussy?

- - - - - - - - - -
Ponine - Aug 13, 2005 4:05 am (#487 of 528)
Now what? Did everyone else go someplace else??

- - - - - - - - - -
Mrs Brisbee - Aug 13, 2005 6:50 am (#488 of 528)
Er-- just sort of hanging out in Limbo. My problem is that the longer I wait to reread HBP, the more I realize I need to in order to discuss things about the book intelligently, but the less I want to do it (first impression puts HBP as least favorite in the series for me, after CoS. If not for the magic of Jim Dale, I'd have only ever gone through CoS once).

Anyway, doing the reread here would violate S.E. Jones's edict that we can't have a HBP Read Along thread because that is what the chapter discussion folder is for.

However, since I think we all want this to be a read along, I think before we go to the chapter discussion folder we should choose someone as a pace setter, who can move us all on to the next chapter at the appropriate time.

I vote for Steve, because I don't think he missed a beat during the OotP Read Along.

Anyway, I've got a train thing my family needs to help out with at a museum all day tomorrow, but I'll check back in here Monday.

- - - - - - - - - -
Steve Newton - Aug 13, 2005 11:16 am (#489 of 528)
Mrs. B., thanks for the vote of confidence. If no one else jumps in I'll try to get things started here Monday night, I think. My brother and his family are here this weekend.

- - - - - - - - - -
Ponine - Aug 13, 2005 4:41 pm (#490 of 528)
Sounds good - I will start my notes and actually be ready for chapter one on Monday as well. I think it is a good idea to have Steve as the pace setter, and thanks Steve, for agreeing to do so! I am getting excited about this!!

- - - - - - - - - -
Mrs Brisbee - Aug 15, 2005 5:20 am (#491 of 528)
Okay then! I'll be ready to post tonight too

- - - - - - - - - -
Steve Newton - Aug 15, 2005 2:04 pm (#492 of 528)
Edited Aug 15, 2005 3:29 pm
HBP read along.

Chapter 1, The Other Minister

Not from Harry’s viewpoint.

Froglike little man. Have we seen frogs before? To me frogs and toads are basically the same thing. I guess Trevor is not relevant here.

The Wizarding World has a long reach. It can make foreign presidents forget.

They ended up importing 4 dragons. The extra doesn't seem to be worth bringing up.

Fudge seems to have been honest in his belief that Voldemort was not back. A major blow for the Fudge as a former DE idea.

“Is a man alive if he can’t be killed?” Good question.

Weren’t Voldemort’s Azkaban followers already back in prison? Why would Fudge lie?

Why was Vance near the PMs office?

Who put the imperius on Chorley? It seems to have been done poorly. Perhaps somebody’s first attempt? Say Draco?

Elanor, in the HBP discussions folder mentions this. "The Chancellor of the Exchequer is mentioned. "it comes from the French word "échiquier" (chessboard) and it was brought by the Normans." For those keeping track of possible chess references.

- - - - - - - - - -
Mrs Brisbee - Aug 15, 2005 3:30 pm (#493 of 528)
Hey Steve, can you repost this in the Chapter Discussion Folder? I don't want to go against the hosts' edict that that is where the HBP read along belongs

- - - - - - - - - -
I Am Used Vlad - Aug 15, 2005 8:02 pm (#494 of 528)
Why is it inappropriate to have a HBP read along in the Read Along thread?

- - - - - - - - - -
Madam Pince - Aug 15, 2005 11:02 pm (#495 of 528)
I agree, I think we could start here (assuming - can I play too? I've never done a read along.) SE Jones said she didn't want to start a new HBP Read Along thread -- this one already exists and according to Denise's first post, it can be used for any book. I'm a little surprised nobody answered Ponine's question in the Hosts thread, though, because she had a good response as to why we didn't want to use the existing chapter-by-chapter. There are existing discussions going on now there that might be disrupted if a read-along jumped in maybe? I know when I started reading HBP for the first time on July 17th, I didn't think of those chapter-by-chapter threads as a "read along" -- I just jumped in whenever I felt like it with comments or whatever. Oops, maybe I did it wrong.

I don't care. Whatever you guys (and/or the Hosts, if they weigh in) decide. Actually we probably could jump in over in the chapter-by-chapter; it could be a non-hostile takeover.

- - - - - - - - - -
I Am Used Vlad - Aug 16, 2005 12:38 pm (#496 of 528)
I want to join in, too. I've still only read the book once, and want to read along with other people. I'll happily do it anywhere.

- - - - - - - - - -
Mrs Brisbee - Aug 16, 2005 2:11 pm (#497 of 528)
Welcome, Madame Pince and I Am Used Vlad!

Kip has promised an answer to the Read Along thread question in a few days, after the hosts have all the necessary information to make a decision. Anyone interested should read our request and his response up in the Questions For The Host(s) thread, in case they have any pertinent information to add.

The we'll wait for the hosts' decision, and then proceed.

- - - - - - - - - -
Steve Newton - Aug 22, 2005 8:47 am (#498 of 528)
Mrs Brisbee, have you had any word from Kip yet? Its been almost a week but I haven't seen anything in the Questions thread. I'm rarin' to go.

- - - - - - - - - -
Madam Pince - Aug 22, 2005 10:23 am (#499 of 528)
I know! I couldn't stop reading, and now I'm already on page 390. I'll have to start all over again!

- - - - - - - - - -
Mrs Brisbee - Aug 22, 2005 1:09 pm (#500 of 528)
No word. I'll bite the bullet and send an e-mail.

[Julia H.]

Harry Potter and the Order of the Phoenix Book Read Along (Posts 501-528)


Steve Newton - Aug 26, 2005 6:02 am (#501 of 528)
Chapter 2-Spinner's End

Didn't JKR on her site say that there would be a chapter called Spinners End. The missing apostrophe does change the meaning.

Narcissa apparates quieter than Bella. Is she more powerful? Later, is Bella afraid of her?

Snape seems to have lots of books.

Is Peter spying on Snape? Maybe not, he seems to have made a life out of lurking.

Bella asks good questions. She must be a member of the forum.

"A rather more useful welcome back present then endless reminiscences of how unpleasant Azkaban is..." Who said Snape doesn't have a sense of humor?

Is Snape just taking credit for the Vance murder or did he really set it up?

"I have played my part well." True no matter which side he is on.

I have seen no signs of Dumbledore slowing down.

What does Snape see out of the window?

Snape does seem to be taken aback at the suggestion of the Unbreakable Vow.

- - - - - - - - - -
Mrs Brisbee - Aug 26, 2005 6:06 am (#502 of 528)

*jumps up and down, waving arms**

Steve! Hey, Steve! Wrong thread! One above!

- - - - - - - - - -
Steve Newton - Aug 26, 2005 6:33 am (#503 of 528)
Jeez, (slaps self on head). Maybe someday I'll get it right.

- - - - - - - - - -
Mrs Brisbee - Dec 11, 2006 7:34 pm (#504 of 528)
Who would like to do a new Read Along?

Mrs. B, I don't see any obvious place to discuss this but I see existing threads for read-a-longs for SS/PS, COS, and HBP. I'm pretty sure that I took part in an OOTP read-a-long. Probably long since mulched. That two books taht can be handily done, POA and GOF. --Steve Newton (from the Vote Folder)

Okay, I've done OotP (so did you, Steve!), PS/SS, and HBP. I would like any of the remaining three, preferring CoS (which was made more interesting by HBP, in my opinion), or PoA (it's fun to discuss time travel until your head explodes!).

So, we overlap on PoA as a favored candidate.

Anyone else want to weigh in?

- - - - - - - - - -
Mrs. Sirius - Dec 11, 2006 11:09 pm (#505 of 528)
I love the read alongs but always fade out posting a few chapters in. I continue read others' posts, but I have I tough time posting consistantly. (I am a big lurker).

Right now I am reading HBP and the Spanish language version on HBP. POA is still, I think, my overall favorite.

- - - - - - - - - -
Steve Newton - Dec 12, 2006 7:33 am (#506 of 528)
I can go with any of the books, not even objecting to repeats. POA is very good but COS is shorter and may have new significance in light of HBP, which I am just starting to listen to again.

Mrs. Sirius, lurking is OK and feel free to jump in with any observations you might have. Much of the stuff that I post is just impulse and items that seem like they might be important. I usually don't have a strong point of view. (Excepting, of course, about Marietta.)

- - - - - - - - - -
Steve Newton - Dec 14, 2006 8:34 am (#507 of 528)
I just checked and it seems that the previous COS read-a-long never actually ended. Are we a go or should we recruit people and decide which book? Choices is still around and seemed to participate. Others as well.

- - - - - - - - - -
Mrs Brisbee - Dec 14, 2006 9:19 am (#508 of 528)
I'm in. I was just waiting to see if there were any more who were interested. The boards seem a bit slow, probably due to the holidays (my postings will probably be sporadic until after Christmas).

I like the idea of doing CoS.

- - - - - - - - - -
Mrs. Sirius - Dec 14, 2006 9:30 am (#509 of 528)
Have you thought about adding a note to the chat thread to generate interest and to inform new members who may no know about read along?

Edit: I just added the post and link.

PS: Hi Mrs. Brisbee (I actually like slow, gives me a chance to read)

- - - - - - - - - -
Tazzygirl - Dec 14, 2006 11:25 am (#510 of 528)
I would love to do the read along, but my CoS is back in Hawaii. Won't be back there for a couple weeks. My parents do have OotP here at their house, so if anyone wants to do that one...? (Or I might just sit out for the couple weeks and then join in again when I have my complete set of books available to me....)

- - - - - - - - - -
haymoni - Dec 14, 2006 11:27 am (#511 of 528)
I was actually about to re-read OotP so that I do not become movie-contaminated with the onslaught of trailers, clips and stills.

- - - - - - - - - -
Steve Newton - Dec 16, 2006 9:28 am (#512 of 528)
Well, what does everyone think? Which book? COS and POA have been mentioned. I'm open to any. When should we start? Is before Christmas a problem?

- - - - - - - - - -
Mrs Brisbee - Dec 18, 2006 7:02 am (#513 of 528)
Now I'm confused. I still prefer CoS (HBP makes it more interesting; former read along never completed) or PoA (good book). Although OotP is my favorite book, I've done a Read Along for it (we currently stand within the completed OotP Read Along folder), and I'm not sure if I'd have much in the way of new thoughts to contribute. But if enough others actually want OotP, and are willing to do it, I'll go with it.

- - - - - - - - - -
Mrs. Sirius - Dec 18, 2006 8:02 am (#514 of 528)
At this point, I would prefer COS or POA also.

- - - - - - - - - -
Mrs Brisbee - Dec 18, 2006 8:37 am (#515 of 528)
**waves to Mrs. Sirius**

Then how about CoS?

Our last read along was PS/SS, so we would be going in order. We could do PoA next.

What do you all think?

- - - - - - - - - -
Steve Newton - Dec 18, 2006 11:03 am (#516 of 528)
Works for me.

- - - - - - - - - -
Tazzygirl - Dec 18, 2006 8:17 pm (#517 of 528)
I'll keep an eye on this thread while you all discuss CoS- then when I have access to my book, I'll jump in. Is that okay?

- - - - - - - - - -
Steve Newton - Dec 20, 2006 9:17 am (#518 of 528)
So, where do we stand? Since my internet connectivity at home has been spotty I haven't been able to keep up as much as I would like.

- - - - - - - - - -
Mrs Brisbee - Dec 20, 2006 9:30 am (#519 of 528)
We are going to do a CoS Read Along. I think everyone has been too busy to get the ball rolling. One of us needs to ask a host to open a new thread, or provide a link in the existing CoS thread to the new Read Along. If no one else does it, I'll do that later today or tomorrow.

- - - - - - - - - -
Thom Matheson - Dec 20, 2006 10:25 am (#520 of 528)
I think that you just did

- - - - - - - - - -
Ludicrous Patents Office - Dec 26, 2006 3:16 pm (#521 of 528)
I am interested in doing the read along. Do we have a thread yet? I found the old one. LPO

- - - - - - - - - -
Mrs Brisbee - Dec 26, 2006 8:27 pm (#522 of 528)
I asked in the Questions For The Hosts thread if we could have a new thread or if we should use the old one. My guess is we will eventually be told to use the old one, since that's what happened with the PS/SS read along. We could probably just start if we wanted.

- - - - - - - - - -
Mrs. Sirius - Dec 26, 2006 11:25 pm (#523 of 528)
Oh Mrs B, what with all the news and fluster with the announcement of the Book 7 title, I have not picked up my COS yet.

However I have a question, my eight year old says she would like to join the discussion. She has read all 6 books, I read them to her over the past couple of years and she read books 1-5 by herself at least once this summer. She has read COS twice already. She doesn't have her own login in, but would you want to have the contributions of an 8 year old (brilliant though she is) in our discussions?

- - - - - - - - - -
Mrs Brisbee - Dec 27, 2006 4:46 am (#524 of 528)
Absolutely! Her thoughts on the books would be most welcome, and her age will be a valuable asset. I would love to hear how someone as young as she views much of what goes on in the books, since I know that my perspective is colored by my age and being a parent.

- - - - - - - - - -
Steve Newton - Dec 27, 2006 7:01 am (#525 of 528)
The holiday frenzy abating I am ready to get started. I do hope that we get a COS Read-a-Long II thread. It would make things much simpler. I hope that ya'll had a good holiday.

- - - - - - - - - -
Mrs Brisbee - Dec 29, 2006 6:05 am (#526 of 528)
I've a feeling the CoS request has been lost in the general holiday bustle, or hidden by the ongoing board weirdness (I had 900 million new posts claimed in one thread this morning!), or maybe I'm just a jinx when it comes to getting a Read Along set up because I never have much luck. Could someone else put another request in?

- - - - - - - - - -
Steve Newton - Dec 29, 2006 12:15 pm (#527 of 528)
Mrs. B, I have emailed Denise about starting the new thread. We'll see what happens. Denise did a good job overseeing the previous read-a-longs so I thought she would be a good one to contact.

- - - - - - - - - -
Mrs Brisbee - Dec 29, 2006 2:00 pm (#528 of 528)
Thanks, Steve. That was a good idea.

[Sponsored content]